by Sweetp0985 45 Replies latest watchtower bible
According to the book "The Jesus Mysteries" they have proven through computer analyses that the later latter that have been attributed to Paul were not written by the same author as the earlier letters by Paul. Some of his latter letters were not added to the Canon until the 2nd or 3rd century. It all comes down to who was the "God" that decided what was inspired scriptures and what was not. It is a good book but that is all it is. It is no more inspired than any other book.
Will
First you have to believe that Yahweh/God is in control and the 66 books (Bible) is from God. God saw fit to have 66 books to make up his word, now did other people write books... yes but it was by there own will not God's. If something in there books contradicts the 66 books/The Bible, You have to believe the 66 books(Bible) over theres, Because God doesn't lie and his word is truth. There are contradictions in the books of st. thomas, and the macabee's etc. Everything you need is from Gen.-Rev. (66 books).
Everything you need is from Gen.-Rev.
Again, why are we supposed to believe this is God's word? I could say here that what I say is inspired of God and you cannot contradict me. Does that make what I said from God? You may believe otherwise but 2000 years form now who is to say it is not inspired? I mean the Mormons believe their book of Mormon, that was written by Joseph Smith is inspired. On this premise, do we have any right to say otherwise? I have not being proven that the bible is inspired from God because what it ultimately comes down to is following something full of myths and tales, with blind faith.
Will
14 Yes, the seventh one [in line] from Adam, E´noch, prophesied also regarding them, when he said: "Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads, 15 to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and concerning all the shocking things that ungodly sinners spoke against him."
This is very interesting, especially since the Bible does acknowledge other writings. But I'm wondering if the current surviving books are in their original form or if they've been revised or lost. After all, take for instance the Book of Esther. The current "Hebrew" version in most Bible's is a different version than in the earlier version of the LXX. Now Esther is included in the canon for most Bibles but we know it was revised and we know it's not inspired because it historically contradicts the Bible. ???
Further, I think the WTS position is valid as far as the reference to Enoch since it's possible some of his writings did survive or was quoted from, but we don't know the source. That is, we don't know if the reference to what Enoch said was a quote from the current version of "Enoch" we have, or if it was just a quote in some other history the Jews considered reliable and simply did not include in their canon of "sacred" books.
Thus in that regard, I think it is noteworthy to observe that the NT Bible writers managed to quote from every single book of the OT except for three: Esther, Song of Solomon, and Ecclesiastes. Esther and SOS are quite dismissible based upon conflict with the Bible or other context issues, Ecclesiastes was just not quoted from. Thus there is a subjective internal Bible canon I call the "Apostolic Canon", which seems to differentiate or add validity to those books quoted that would be lacking for other books not included. Not that other books can't supplement our understanding of the current Bible as we know it, excluding the three books mentioned above, of course.
I study many of the apocryphal writings as well which have interesting background information, etc. but still put them in a different category than the sacred writings. Obviously, though, if some books conflict with the current gospels and OT that would be a reason of exclusion. They may challenge the current Bible but shouldn't be included in the canon. Lots of historical books contradict each other as far as their version of history, in particular; what else is new!
Thanks for the interesting post! I hope some of these books are available for us to check out and compare.
JC
According to the book "The Jesus Mysteries" they have proven through computer analyses that the later latter that have been attributed to Paul were not written by the same author as the earlier letters by Paul. Some of his latter letters were not added to the Canon until the 2nd or 3rd century. It all comes down to who was the "God" that decided what was inspired scriptures and what was not. It is a good book but that is all it is. It is no more inspired than any other book. Will
This won't relate well to any but anointed JWs, but it is just a point that some of us who actually believe everything in the Bible and are literalists have to deal with, which sort of affects the final canon. And that is that both Paul and John, the major contributors to the NT never were supposed to have died, but would live on throughout the ages until Jesus returned during the 20th century at the second coming. That's way too hard for some to believe but some of the anointed are actually aware of some of these surviving ancient ones. Obviously one advantage of having some of the first century original Christians survive is to "shepherd" the Bible until it got into a final stable form. I don't know of any historical direct interaction, but one would think that even by the 3rd century there might not have been much choice as far as the final Bible is concerned if there were many copies of the NT writings well distributed and considered by the body of the church as part of the original letters of Paul, etc. Of course, Paul was still alive and would have had that secretive influence. Additionally, just as God put certain persons in place in foreign governments to oversee Jewish matters (i.e. Joseph, Daniel, Nehemiah) this might have been the case as well until the Bible's canon became officially established, to at least include the books the original apostles wanted to include. Somehow three apocryphal books still got into the final canon (Esther, SOS and Ecclesiates) but they were not cross-quoted from by the NT Bible writers.
Thus under this theory, I can only imagine there us always present "sufficient influence" to make sure the Scriptures we know today as "The Bible" is essentially what was God's intended gift to us, mankind in general but particularly to those "anointed ones" who are custodians of God's light.
Satan, of course, would be desperate to create his own works to distract from the scriptures so one would suspect other writings, even of a pseudo-Biblical nature would show up and be promoted in later times by his followers -- so there's that too.
Interesting, but I suppose you have to have "faith" that the essential Bible is serving God's purpose. It's an amazing work and the Dead Sea Scrolls prove it is well preserved. At last the JWs do have a lot of good research on the Bible itself supporting it as a reliable copy of the original works.
Finally, if there appears any "serious" challenges to the current Bible, even perhaps well-faked "originals", is Paul and John had survived all this time then likely they would have perserved some of the ancient writings they thought would be necessary to preempt any real challeges, so there is that. That some of the really ancient original writings are still in position of some secretive Christian cultists that would dismiss any real challenge to scripture. I think the general "myth" about these writings are dealt with as part of the ppoular "Da Vinci Code" reference, that is, that along with the bloodline of Christ surviving, there are all these ancient writings that are supposed to be in existence and revealed at some point; the reference being that some of the original writings, even ancient genealogical records still exist and were preserved.
Now I understand if some think that Paul and John among others is too hard to believe, even though the Bible says they did, but one would think that the importance of these original writings would have been anticipated by Christians and some of the original writings kept secret and handed down and preserved apart from the primary church that would have become "apostate" early on as prophesied. The mere presence of these original writings would serve to keep the pagan influences in the church "honest" as far as the canon was concerned.
Interesting topic.
JC
I find these discussion very intersting. Never while I was a witness for nearly 30 years did we have such discussion about biblical authorship. Questioning the authority or bible canon was right up there with questioning the Governing body of the Watchtower Society. I wonder now why that was.
Since leaving 3 years ago, I've been through many stages of thought on God, the Bible, and religion. I seem like a person tossed here and there upon the sea. But you know this is much more exciting to me than sitting in the endless meetings hearing the drone of the Elders talking about WTS policy or concepts of bible teachings. I realize it is ok to be tossed about, reexamining our believe about God and Jesus. If I had the money & health was better I would go back to college and go into religious studies, I find it totally fasinating. How invigorating all this is. I have come to feel as a Deist, believe in God a powerful being who created all life, yet nothing written about this being is the entire Truth. Perhaps bits of truth are in everything written about God. I no longer view myself as a sinner in need of redeeming. And much happier for that.
Balsam
It still comes down to having blind faith that this is the word of God. Like I said, out side of the bible, there is no evidence that this is an inspired book. If it is so inspired, why is there thousands of so called Christian religion that all interpret the book differently?
Will
And that is that both Paul and John, the major contributors to the NT never were supposed to have died, but would live on throughout the ages until Jesus returned during the 20th century at the second coming. That's way too hard for some to believe but some of the anointed are actually aware of some of these surviving ancient ones
Sound pretty cool. Like vampires or something. Maybe this is what that house in San Diego was built for back in the early 1900s.
I have a pretty vivid imagination....imagine what it would be like to have lived for the past 2000 years. You could say that you saw just about everything. I wonder if you would be happy that you never died or if you would sit around thinking life sucked.
I started this thread and now I have some more wood to throw on the fire. I went to a link that had many quotes from JW publications, some of which now they have gotten "new light" and changed and some that they still believe. But anyway there was a quote from The Watchtower on 4/1/1920 where the WT says " That it contains some mistakes if freely admitted. Even the Bible contains some." Now exactly what the "it" is in the first sentence I don't know, but the second one is clearly saying that they admitted then that the bible contains some mistakes.
Another quote from WT 4/15/1928 says," Sometimes a member of a class will refuse to engage in the canvassing for books because there are some mistakes in the books, and says his conscience will not permit him to put books in which there are mistakes into the hands of the people. Of course this is another method that the enemy adopts to confuse the minds and furnish an excuse for not being faithful to the Lord. As every one knows, there are mistakes in the Bible and there has never been a book written yet that is perfect that has been written by any human hand.
So my thoughts are since God is perfect wouldn't he make sure that his words are perfect to us. Or maybe I'm just looking at it wrong. But since it's always said God never changes, why would he inspire something one year and come back and change it a couple of years later. Such as the JW's saying they get their info from God and then when they get caught in one of their "man-made" interpretations of something they say Jehovah gave them new light.
This is why I am a believer in the Message of the Bible. As far as the Bible having something Noah said 5000 years ago......
