Why DO they stay?

by BugEye 20 Replies latest jw friends

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  BugEye

  Pathofthorns

  Thank you for your post, and thank you for being so critical of others, without this criticism and putting down of those who do not agree with your thinking, you would have no means of making yourself feel superior. Keep up the good work.

  Oh and BTW, in my post, I said

  Some of the reasons that I have seen are:

  NOT some of the reasons that they stay.

  To clarify it a little further for you, in case it is not clear, this is a forum and people suggest ideas on why people remain in the WTS and some of the reasons that I have "SEEN" are :

  Get it now???

  There you go, it wasnt so hard now was it.

  Please feel free to make yourself higher and higher and taller by pushing others down and making them appear not up to your immense standards.

  BugEye
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  SixofNine

  I think there have been many, if not all, of the "details" as to why JW's stay JW's listed in this thread.

  And while I don't agree with Path on the stupid part, I do think that JW's who remain are ignorant and gullible. The odd thing is that they may not be any more gullible than anyone else, in other areas of life. I know I wasn't. Those who aren't ignorant and gullible, are most likely stupid and mean.

  But those are, IMO, just details. The real reason people stay is GOD. God dammit all, it's about GOD! Good Lord people, praise Jehovah for the good things! May Jah have mercy on those people fighting in the middle east. God allows that, He will certainly allow some imperfection in the congregation. Lawd A'mighty! He has built the small one into a thousand!!! HE, He knows you have weaknesses, but HE wants you to keep trying, brother. His Son Jesus sacrificed His life so that we would have a chance at everlasting life in paradise (with others who also appreciate His and His sacrifice in our puny behalf - - can one have a puny behalf?). Jesus is ruling the congregations, you ingrate. Do you question his abilities. Can Jah not do mighty things with mere men? Hasn't HE and He always used and interacted with puny men, to accomplish His(s) will?

  FEAR the true god Jehovah. Probably you will be concealed in the day of his burning anger.

  Why do JW's stay? If Jah is with us, who will be against us?

  Certainly not me.
• 

  princecharmant

  The issues may be far more complicated.

  "They want everything in black and white."

  I believe this applies to every religion. Adepts want to see things in simple, uncomplicated terms, and the simpler the better. If the earth was created in six days, six days be it. Anything beyond that fundamental interpretation is bound to raise contention, spurn depths that religion in the basic sense is not kitted out to handle. It is not typical of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  "They prefer to leave thinking to others."

  Again typical to most religious groups. That's why there is a clergy class in every structured religion. The clergy are supposedly closer to the divine, therefore able to think and interprete, teach the laity.

  "They are scared to be shunned."

  Rightfully so. It's human to want to belong to the group and not be ostracized. It's sad for any religion to use "shunning" as a weapon. This is one of the most reprehensible of practices among Witnesses. Unfortunately, the majority of witnesses think they are right and biblically authorized to disfellowship and shun - even as the Catholic Church claims every right to excommunicate.

  "They are just ignorant souls who are on the "opium of the people" "

  You could generalize that to every religion and body of beliefs. Which would make every believer in or practicer of a religion an ignorant soul, needing a frequent fix of that "opium"....

  "They dont want others to think bad of them."

  An all too human reaction.

  Could it be that many Witnesses who choose to remain simply want a religion to cling to, and they are reasonably comfortable with what they have?

  I think it too presumptuous on anyone's part to dump scores of thousands into simplified and simplistic pigeon holes for their own comfort.

  PC
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  BoozeRunner

  BugEye, nice post.
  One of the reasons I see is the sense of "community" created by the WTS. For old-timers and those born into the WTS, this is ALL they know as far as socialization goes. As we well know, the BORG has created this "collective" to benefit itself.
  Questions, of course, are routinely met with accusations of apostasy, and then covered up with the NEW LIGHT or "WAIT ON JAH" crap.
  It all goes along with the cult mindset.
  1.Create a "worthy" objective(spiritual ones seem to work best)
  2.Recruit members
  3.Isolate members
  4.Take-over their thinking(after all, you DID come up with the worthy cause)
  5.Depict all other thinking as threatening to the well being of your objective
  6.Develop sanctions for improper thinking and behaviour

  Very effective tactics. No wonder some will never leave. Fear of losing their whole world is an effective deterrent.
  I probably wouldnt have left had I not been DF'd. It would have been way too earth-shattering for at that particular stage of my life.
  Amazing the freedom that came with some smokes, a bit of sex, and refusing to give up a lifelong friend who was DF'd. LoL

  Boozy
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  safe4kids

  Hey Dave
  Good post...I agree with your comments regarding that strong need to 'know' the future. I think that is one of the things that held me in for so long. That and the very real fear of losing every person I loved and everything that was important to me. When I left, I felt as though the very foundations of my entire existence had been shaken loose; it is a devastating thing to lose one's faith. But as has been pointed out, the WTS demands faith to an organization, and imposes incredibly harsh rules and punitive actions upon those who choose not to be of the 'faithful'.

  Closer2fine...I can really relate to your post! My mother has been a Jdub for about 35 years now...my sister and I have talked about how easy it would be to completely shatter her faith...but we realize this would be a terrible unkindness to her...she has given up so much...both of her daughters and 4 grandchildren, all for the sake of the bORG. I think my mother would 'snap', as you said. At this point, she is probably much better off dying 'faithful'...sad, isn't it??

  Dana

  "A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born."
  Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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  RedhorseWoman

  Being brought up as a JW, I knew nothing else. In trying to be a "good" JW, I scrupulously avoided any literature that might "poison" my thinking.

  When I grew older and began to see inconsistencies and hypocrisy, I (again the good JW) blamed myself for "looking at the imperfections of men" and for not "waiting on Jehovah". These mantras were simplistic, but effective in stopping any sort of critical thinking.

  When the evidence became overwhelming, and I found I could no longer remain active, the fear of being human and having a "bad attitude" that "clouded my thinking" was very close to the surface for a very long time.

  Of course, my departure was prior to the Internet, and I had no effective means of researching and comparing the inconsistencies of WT dogma over the years. The Society doesn't want its members to have too much information available to them.

  The above-mentioned thought patterns are still effective today, especially when they are ingrained from a young age. IMO, even when a JW becomes aware of how wrong the WTBTS has been and continues to be, it is still difficult to get past these mental blocks.
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  BugEye

  Heya Boozy

  Thanks for the response. The mind control techniques used by the WTS are indeed effective, although not as effective as a couple of other religious organisations.

  The alpha level programming at longer meetings and conventions is also well done.

  At large conventions, the attendants and specified walking paths with area's that are "out of bounds" serve as an excellent manipulation tool. Due to thirst, food deprivation and uncomfortable seating along with monotonous repetative messages, the average attendee is almost guaranteed to be in a fairly suggestable mental state.

  The physical "guidance" offered by the brothers then serves to impress the idea that restrictions and a set path are natural and easily translates into a mental guidance.

  This is why, even though a convention rarely if ever offers new information, atendees often return feeling "spritually refreshed". Their self restrictions and limitations that have slowly been failing over time have been reinforced by patterned behaviour modification.

  All in all, someone desiring to learn mind control would do well to observe the WTS in action, although I think the Scientologists may be a more advanced place to look.

  BugEye
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  Pathofthorns

  BugEye

  I apologize for misreading your comments.

  I am however confused as to the reason for your following remarks. Any clarification as to the reason for such a reaction would be appreciated.

  ...thank you for being so critical of others, without this criticism and putting down of those who do not agree with your thinking, you would have no means of making yourself feel superior.

  Exactly how am I being critical of others? I simply disagreed with your conclusion and stated an opinion of my own. Am I permitted to do this? Or are you putting me down for not agreeing with you?

  Please feel free to make yourself higher and higher and taller by pushing others down and making them appear not up to your immense standards.

  Where on earth are you coming up with a basis to make comments like these?

  Like I said, I appreciated the clarification of your comments and I acknowlege that my interpretation of them was in error. But perhaps you might want to issue a simple clarification in the hopes that will be sufficient before attacking people. For Christ's sake give people a chance before flipping out.

  Path
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  esther

  BugEye, good question. You said

  Most of the literature from the WTS is presented in a "textbook" fashion, which impressively convinces people that the contained information must be correct.

  That is true, particularly since it contains references. The WTBTS insinuates that there are many opposers, so people think that if there were inaccuracies, it would be common knowledge. So they don't check.

  Had Enough, you said

  knowing the future as it was "prophecied in the Bible", his promises, his word...was the strongest hold on me fortified by all the "fulfilled prophecies" before us as proof these promises would also come true.

  This was true for me, too.

  Pathofthorns, you said

  There is also more information available to those with doubts than at any other time.

  While this is true, you must realise that (1) good JWs, even if they have access to the internet, do not usually go to 'apostates' for information and (2) JWs are brainwashed into thinking that the doubts are caused by being 'spiritually weak', so tend to try to improve their spirituality. Also, the majority of dubs do not know about the injustices and corruption within the organisation. I had quite a shock when I found out how much covering up goes on in the organisation, and I had already left before I looked at any 'apostate' sites.

  You also put down people who become JWs by saying

  No reasonable or thinking person will ever sign up to be a JW. Only the "stupid, ignorant or gullible" do, and that mostly encompasses JW children who have not the intellectual maturity to critically examine things before making such a serious decision.

  And then you have the nerve to say that you weren't being critical of others

  Boozy, Dana, Redhorsewoman I agree with your comments

  esther
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  Pathofthorns

  You also put down people who become JWs by saying

  No reasonable or thinking person will ever sign up to be a JW. Only the "stupid, ignorant or gullible" do, and that mostly encompasses JW children who have not the intellectual maturity to critically examine things before making such a serious decision.

  And then you have the nerve to say that you weren't being critical of others.

  Then I have to ask if you are saying that "reasonable and thinking" persons sign up to be JW's, then why are you here and not a JW? Are the JW's you know "reasonable and thinking" when you try to discuss "facts"?

  Or are they not instead:

  IGNORANT: Not aware of all the facts
  GULLIBLE: Refuse to think and consider the facts but wish to continue believing something "too good to be true". Have made decisions without a critical analysis.
  STUPID: If you don't know any stupid Witnesses, then good for you

  If I am being critical of people who are or who become Witnesses at the present time (and who isn't being critical of this on this forum?), then I am first and foremost critical of MYSELF for having IGNORED or DOWNPLAYED all the warning signs I saw and for remaining as long as I did. This is one of my greatest regrets. I was STUPID.

  But I am greatful for my IGNORANCE being taken away and for me having the opportunity to enjoy the rest of my life. Even if the organization uses unexceptable teaching techniques or some sort of mind control, we all make a conscious choice at some point to break free from that.

  Path