Supplement to Justice #15 - Parking Lot

by Amazing 15 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hellow everyone: There were a number of responses to Justice #15 about the parking lot DFing. I decided to make a new post to deal with these related but different issues.

    First, the purpose of the post was not so much about rushing to judgment, but to show that the process is flawed, and the reflective question at the end shows that I was disturbed as to why we allowed these events to develop the way we do, especially over matters that really are not all that serious.

    Second, your follow-up comments also bring out some good additional concerns. I will address those that seem to be of greatest concern. Let me know if I miss anyting.

    My Ego: One poster said, It seems that as elders, you were hurt by that fact that Sister S did not listen to your counsel, so you had to take some sort of action. While I was upset, I did say in the post that it was due to the frustration of not being able to talk with Sister S, and then the 'worldly' family made that even more difficult. But, my ego was not shattered or bent because she did not follow counsel. In fact, as I stated in my post, we took a new approach and lifted the burden off of her, and supported her decision to either stay at home or live with her grandparents, "to get a new perspective.' As I showed in my post and state again here, we took action in the end because the parents insisted. We did not exercise forethought or strength to stop the JC. Also, I stated that when I got the other Elder, it was my hope to calm the parents, but before I knew it, we were in JC mode.

    7 Day Appeal: No, there would be no appeal in this case. She had written two letters, one of them certified, stating her intentions not to be a JW. We should have honoered that as good enough and announced her DA and not DF. The JC action was based on subsequent allegations, and she had opportunity to contact us and seek a meeting, but she chose not to do that. If she had come up to me shortly after learning she was DF and asked for an appeal, we would have granted it, and announced that the DFing was set aside. We have done that before. But, given her intentions, I doubted she would have done that.

    My Own Errors: Yes. I made errors, even within the context of JW policy. I did not always know what to do, and would seek out some advice. Before I knew it, a JC was formed and I was on it. One of my earlier post about the young sister we met with, where I chaired the JC, was an example of this.

    Although I am experienced and well educated, I am not trained in handling such issues, and I doubt that even professional therapists and counselors would know what to do within the context of Watch Tower policy and procedure. They would be good outside that context, as I would be just using my own common sense. This is the core issue of the WTS JC system ... untrained men applying a system that is not sensible cannot help but screw people over.

    Harassment: Harassment was never intended. Also, one poster said that I made two trips to the 'worldly' home. My post clearly states that we made only one trip to the 'worldly' home. I admitted upfront that when I got Sister S first letter, I should have simply complied and made a DA announcement. I made an error. But, somehow, because I had so few real answers, I wanted to at least talk to the girl one last time. One trip to see her, however, doe not constitute harassment.

    She did not make the allegation of 'harassment' until after the first and only visit to the 'worldly' home. The allegation was made in a typewritten certified letter in a style and manner inconsistent with what a 17 year old girl would write. [And inconsistent with her personal style and capability.] Therefore, she was obviously coached. To what extent she agreed with [or fully understood] the language of the letter is a matter of debate.

    One poster said about me:I think that this case does not show that Jehovah's Witnesses are unloving, but that you were. My motives were in no way unloving. I enjoyed the family and knew the young girl since she was very little. My goal was to take pressure off of her, as we did in our only meeting with her. I wanted to actually take off more pressure so that she would not be shunned by being DA'd. But somehow, given the parents insistence, and my own lack of forethought, we ended up with a JC. Was the result unloving? Yes, by all means and I take a measure of responsibility for that. And if I knew where the girl lived, or if she was still not a JW, I would definitely apoligize to her.

    One poster stated, You say that you met as a JC in the parking lot because all rooms were taken. Couldn't you have waited to meet at another time? You hurried because you were pressured by the parents, not because you were following Society guidelines. Don't blame an organization for the mistakes of a few imperfect men, such as yourself.

    This poster is correct to a certain degree. Yes we could have waited. Yes, I admitted that we could'a, would'a, and should'a done a lot of things differently. But your point about the organization misses the purpose of the JC series. I don't know if you read much of the first 14 JC posts. But, at the beginning, I posted a Purpose Statement as a foreword to the Series. The entire process from the Watch Tower leadership, their policies, procedures, teaching, doctrine, training, qualifications for appointment, the mid-level management by COs and Dos, and the individual Elders all share blame. Errors from the top get compounded downward and can and often are applied in a very hurtful manner.

    The Watch Tower religion should not even be in the business of DFing anyone. Given their extensive legalistic policies and procedures, and the nature of their religious system, it is no wonder that at the bottom we take an already screwed-up system and make it worse!

    Keep this VITAL issue in mind: The Watch Tower religion is well aware of these errors. Unless Elders act in a way that could get the parent Watch Tower corporations sued, the Society will turn a blind eye. Why in the HELL do you think they tell JWs to abide by the Elders decisions and counsel, no matter what, even when the JW believes an Elder is in error? The Society does this to place a muzzle on the average JW so that when Elders screw up, the average member will do nothing about it!!! Why? The religion is a fraud and a scam, and the current leadership is just as caught up in their own execrement as were Knorr, Franz, Covington, Rutherford, and Russell. It is all pure unadulterated male bovine excrement!!!

    Most Importantly I stress this next point with all my heart. As much as I tried to use good sense and show love and compassion, even getting some reinstated that should not have been DF'd, I too was a part of the problem. I have made this clear at the beginning of this series. I am not out to paint myself as an angel. I was a true believer in a very flawed system. I think I was about as good as any other Elder. But, I am giving honest and forthright facts, even when I too look bad.

    My experience as an Elder was typical and average. I have talked with many Elders from other parts of the country during my business travels over the years, and my experiences were no better or worse than most others. Therefore, it IS the ENTIRE Watch Tower religious system that is flawed, from top to bottom.

    Where I am at today: I have been away from meetings, service for 9 years. I have been formally DA'd (I have heard anyway) for 6 years. I do not in anyway agree with the JW religion. I am not a member of any religion at all. I cannot accept all of the Bible as literal or necessarily inspired. The Bible seems to have some good history and teachings, but in its current compilation, is a work of men who lived nearly two thousand years ago, and today make up the Roman Catholic Church. The Bible contains much nonsense from a scientific perspective. Some of its historical aspects may not be very accurate. I cannot fathom the thousands of different Christian and Jewish sects. I still have faith in Jesus Christ, and because of that, my faith is held onto by a thin thread.

    If I ever get the opportunity to meet any that I participated in DFing, whether I was in error or not, I will apoligize and try to make it up in some way. I have in some cases done this already with those who I knew who have now left the religion, but none yet of any I helped DF. I try to point them toward the fountain of information available. In one case, I took one ex-JW into my home and helped him financially, even though I had no legal obligation, I felt morally obligated. He ended up shafting me for about $2,500. I have not pursued this debt, in part because I have accepted that it is a small price to pay to try and be of help now.

    I do not have to sit on these forums and expose anything, or expend considerable time, or engage in helping to expose the pedophile issue, or give presentations at ex-JW conferences, or anything else. I do it, because I want to help others get a life, and in someway make up for any wrongs I may have committed as a JW and especially as an Elder, whether those wrongs were because of the system or my own stupidity at the time.

    Last, but not least: I too have been harmed by the same system in many ways that I cannot even begin to count here before you. I too deserve some restitution by the same system that hurt me. My children were likewise in danger at times from pedophiles, and we had a close call that I will discuss in Justice #16, Molesters Under Every Rock. So as I stand as a former JW and former Elder, guilty of some of the wrongs imposed, I too stand as a victim. In my humble opinion, the JW religion is in one great big goddamn mess. [btw: I once heard a CO use that same expression from the platform at a Circuit Assembly when referring to the Roman Catholic Church.]

    Anyway, I think I have summed up things pretty much. I definitely appreciate all your comments and questions. This is good and healthy to hash out this stuff so that we can all see realistic dynamics of the JW religion and the impact on those of us who have left it. - Amazing

  • Fredhall
    Fredhall

    Amazing,

    You are getting worse than a dog that is licking his vomit.

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    The real error in all of these situations is the concept of men judging men. It is impossible for 1,2,3 or 6 humans to judge the heart and/or state of repentance of another person.

    If there is a god, JW elders and others who have stood in judgement of their fellow humans will be judged most harshly.

    hugs

    Joel

  • reagan_oconnor
    reagan_oconnor
    I still have faith in Jesus Christ, and because of that, my faith is held onto by a thin thread.

    Same boat. Welcome aboard.

    <snip>

    I am not a member of any religion at all. I cannot accept all of the Bible as literal or necessarily inspired.

    I went to Mass a few times with my husband’s family (couldn’t get past the transubstantiation), tried out a non-denominational Christian Church (one step up from the Unitarian Universalists in the wishy-washy factor) and sat through an Episcopalian service (gossip-factor appeared to be more motivation than God for a lot of the parishioners). I can’t get comfortable with a church though I’ve tried. I’ve stopped trying. My relationship with God is not dependent on what church I attend or how often. I need my sisters-in-law (“RC” stands for “Raging Catholic” in my extended family) to accept this and stop trying to convert me.

    I have a tough time accepting Adam & Eve and Noah’s Ark as true historical fact. I have become an Evolutionist in that I believe that God used the evolutionary process to achieve completion of the universe. I’m still developing my belief system on this issue.

    I cannot equate God with Jehovah. The name Jehovah turns my stomach.

    If I ever get the opportunity to meet any that I participated in DFing, whether I was in error or not, I will apoligize and try to make it up in some way.

    One elder that sat on my JC and was ultimately responsible for DFing me apologizes to my mother and asks after me every time he sees her. I think it’s motivated by guilt (he later admitted that the DFing was wrong). The only solace for me is that he has stepped down (aside?) as an elder recently and no longer exerts the control over the cong that he once did. Unfortunately, Dad is now the PO and has that control. My father was always much more kind and loving with the members of the congregation than he was with the members of his own family. I hope for their sake that he continues to be that way.

    I do not have to sit on these forums and expose anything, or expend considerable time, or engage in helping to expose the pedophile issue

    <snip>

    I am amazed at (no pun intended, I promise!) and very grateful for the amount of time and effort that you put into your posts. You’ve provided me with much food for thought. Your research has prompted me to delve deeper into the JW doctrine and decide for *myself* why I’ve come out – and plan to stay away.

    Thank you so much; I wish you lived near me, we could have an aposto-fest in Ohio!

    Cheers,
    Reagan

    <edited for <snips>>

    "I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul."

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Reagan: I live in the Chicago area, not too far away unless you are in eastern Ohio. I am traveling this weekend up to Waterloo, Canada to the BRCI Conference. I will be giving a Presentation there. I expect to see a number of well known ex-JWs, like Ros, Jim Penton, and others. Waterloo is about 50 miles west of Toronto in case you wish to stop by.

    Thanks for the kind words. It seems that Justice #15 elicited a different response than normal. I got this from a poster on H20 last eyar on a different post, to the point that he called me a NAZI. LOL

    Anyway, I will post Justice #16 in a few days. Thanks again. - Amazing

  • Roamingfeline
    Roamingfeline

    HI Amazing,

    Thanks for the clarification. As I suspected, you were being honest to a fault, even when it shed light on your own mistakes. I, for one, did not mean to come across as judging you, but I was judging the situation that you were in. You must admit, it WAS a kangaroo court, and I was just as certain when I posted to you that you were sorry for the way it happened.

    It is truly amazing how we could all get caught up in the mindset of the JW's, but the fact is, most of us did, and we have all done things to be ashamed of while in that awful cult.

    RCat

  • reagan_oconnor
    reagan_oconnor

    ...And of *course* I live in Northeastern Ohio! Actually, I was just up in the Niagara Falls area last week, which was a nice trip. Unfortunately, the rest of this month is no good for travel...

    Thanks for the invitation, however. If you ever have need to visit Cleveland, give me a heads-up and I'll pick you up at the airport!


    Reagan

  • jurs
    jurs

    hi amazing,
    i think its cool how you share your experiences. it helps many of us regular JW's see a little of what went on behind the scenes of being an elder. i use to strongly believe that elders were appointed by holy spirit. i trusted the organization completely. i do want to say that i think you are more than a little to hard on yourself. i understand that because of your position you played a role in D'Fing D'Aing people but you were a member of a CULT. i can't believe the crap i use to believe. i would have shunned my own flesh and blood . thank god i was never in that situation but i know that i probably would have. every single one of us is probably ashamed of something we did out of loyalty to the organization. you were just a sheep doing what you were conditioned to do. jurs

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi ROamingFeline: Thanks for your comments. You said,

    You must admit, it WAS a kangaroo court, and I was just as certain when I posted to you that you were sorry for the way it happened.

    Yes, it absolutely was a Kangaroo Court. I didn't want it to happen at the time, because I was trying to get through to the young girl and stop the Da so she would not be shunned. But she insisted with her certified letter and her parents insisted by accusing their daughter of stealing and lying.

    I might add here that if we walk in the cesspool we cannot help but come out of it smelling like shit. And I think some were forgetting that as much as I tried to be moderate and kind, I was still a JW, and these events took place between 10 and 15 years ago. Not too many former Elders seem to post much about their JC experiences, but I started this on H20 with the idea that people need to understand that the Watch Tower System is not appointed by Holy Spirit, it is rather an invention of men who are not very bright, and in many ways are braindead.

    To our credit, those of us wil any level of brain activity left up and leave the religion. Thanks again for your good points. - Amazing

  • Had Enough
    Had Enough

    Hello Amazing:

    I've read your posts of the df'ing account and your follow-up and again am glad you take the time to share these experiences with us. It accomplishes with me, and I'm sure so many others, what you are trying to do...to help us see clearer the elders are just men, many of them incompetent at that for the type of judgements they are required to make.

    I for one was very much of the category that whatever the elders decided was God's direction and decision, and therefore whatever their judgement of me, I accepted, even if I couldn't understand why. I felt, if I didn't understand something, it was because of my weakness or low level of spirituality, or I wasn't praying enough. This was all I had ever known, having been raised in the org. from birth.

    What a load off my shoulders to know I am not alone and that I can see the elders for what they are, and the whole system for what it is....victims of victims of victims, as has been already stated on this board.

    btw...what day will you be giving your presentation at the BRCI?..I'm not too far from there.

    Thanks again for all your work at presenting these accounts for our benefit.

    Had Enough

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