by Flash 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
My feeling is the weaker the man, the more he will hop on the headship bandwagon.
But in all fairness, two heads are better than one, so the man does have the edge there. Sadly he usually does his thinking with the wrong one! Mav, of the "been there and done that" class!
Edited to add; I have a saying, "The female form is God's most elegant work of art!"
No matter what the WT says, I think practicing Headship should be OK in a marriage. What two people do behind closed doors is their business. Ooops my bad-I must be thinking something else.....
Seriously though, I think things should be 50/50 in a marriage. Marriage is a partnership, and both sides should have say in the things that matter. It would tick me off to no end how my mother would play the submission role, and talk about how the Babble Bible speaks of the woman being in submission to her husband. Even in the physical and mental abuse part of it, she would quote the scripture, and say how she must have deserved it. The fact that Marriage and Martyrdom are both "M" words, does not mean that they both correlate....
Surprisingly I had a talk today just about that thing. The brother that gave it brought it in a very safe... way. I can see a few people (Or prolly just in my head) getting a little aggitated when they said weaker vessel and all that but he brought it off safe. You actually had to look to find the majorly objectionable parts about it.
However, I feel that it's half and half also. Women and men might take what people say or do differently but when it comes down to it, it's different but equal all the same. Our weak points and our strong points are equal in my oppinion. Just different in general. Not trying to stereotype everybody because plenty of people (hardly nobody in fact once I think about it) don't live by the stereotypes but you have to admit everybody is different and you have to take those differences and put them in a good positive way to make the marriage work. I totally dislike it when people talk about how "So and so's" divorce rate is lower than other "So and so's" That doesn't say much... just can say that you guys like staying in unsuccessful marriages more than the first So and so. That's why I'm not all too crazy about divorce but of course now I'm rambling.
Oh and by the way most people prolly can tell but I barely come to this site anymore. I was once like the hobo that never would get off the street but now I'm the hobo that seems to never beg for money lol. Bad analogy I know.
Well, I was raised by an elder who was really REALLY PW'd by my mom, who was one of the world's greatest man-haters of the 20th century. I married a man who was strong enough to stand up to my mom and make her back down (impressive all on its own), but who has given me the respect to let me grow into the person I want to be. He's been gentle but not wimpy, strong but not domineering, and the voice of reason when yours truly is flying off into 12 different directions. He also has the graciousness to admit when I'm right and the kindness not to rub it in when I'm wrong. And . . . oh, wait, Scully said this was a PG board . . .
Hmmm, anyway, I think we have a good partnership going. A good example is last Thursday when I got an impassioned plea to be a foster home to a basset who might be facing euthanasia. Instead of immediately saying "yes," I e-mailed Chris about it. Reasons: (1) he has to live with a third basset too, so it's only fair; (2) he has a more level head than I and as a consequence will see the thorns in the rosebush; and (3) I really valued his opinion on the idea. Bless his soft heart, he said "yes," and we would have gotten a foster pup this weekend except the North Texas Basset Rescue Society was more cautious than we were and realized that it wouldn't be good to put a stray dog in a household with a 4-month-old puppy (Moose), because he might pick up an illness. So they'll keep us on the list for a future fostering. Just as well, probably.
Anyway, it's little things like that which build a relationship into a strong, solid marriage.
Nina
In most relationships - women sometimes feel less than equal because of abuse - verbal or mental because men are insensitive little boys in men's bodies. Women mature - Men never really do *L*
But when a woman gives that "Look"......It's time for the man to shut up and sit down or find another place to hang his hat.
Well ... I think NO MARRIAGE ... NO HEADING
Amen to FBF!!!
However, I now this may sound surprising to some, but I consider myself a fairly traditional person when it comes to marriage. I love keeping house and cooking dinner, and embracing my maternal instincts. The beauty with this is that I already know that I'm capable of taking care of myself and earning a good living on my own. Therefore those things that I believe a woman should do in a marriage are done out of respect and love NOT out of obligation. But I also want to marry my partner, not a father. And the JWs put men in more of a father role of their wives. When I was engaged it irritated the hell outta me that if someone had an issue with me, they took it to my fiance instead. It was like once I got married I was suppose to offer up my identity to my husband. Well we didnt get married. 'Nuf Said.
Chevy of the 'call me old fashioned' class
Dearest Flash,
All of us have male.. and female in us. For many, male proves to be more than female and others, female proves to be more than male. We all have male and female in us, but for some of us we have more male than female and for others we have more female than male. The Father and the Son have both male and female in them. The Father and the Son, when making the man, had more male in him than female. When his wife was made, more female was put in her than male. Thus they BOTH existed in God's image.. male AND female. An image of love, peace, long-suffering, goodness, kindness, faith, self-control.
When God made man, he gave many things in subjection to him. This did not give man the right to use and abuse creation like he does now... including his own spouse. The subjection that God gave to man was in the pattern of the subjection the Christ SHOWED to man. The Christ as head of the man, made himself a servant TO man. The responsibility of the head is to do everything.. for the benefit of those to whom you are head over. Up to and including.. surrendering your soul in their behalf. Man was given dominion over all the earth for the purpose to TAKE CARE of the earth, not use it for his own purpose. Those who were given in man's subjection were NOT to obey man according to his own inclination. Man was responsible for cleaning, feeding, ministering, and taking care with tenderness all whom was given into his subjection.
Dearest ohiocow,
I am very sorry that your mom was fooled by the Adversary to believe that she had to be in subjection to your father including the abuse that he put her through. If one mate is harming another, the afflicted one is not required by God to stay there and continuously take the abuse. The Spirit said, "Whenever they persecute you, flee!" If our brother slaps us on one cheek, we turn the other also to him. If he is continuously persecuting us, we are under obligation to flee. If we remain there and continue to allow ourselves to be persecuted, we could "perpetuate" the wickedness of our brother by making ourselves our brother's "punching bag." This is not what either the Father or the Son taught... however, it is unfortunately what the Adversary and those who listen to him teach.
frenchbabyface
Well ... I think NO MARRIAGE ... NO HEADING
That's a safe place...I can relate, though in a differant way.
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seeitallclearlynow
Well it's definitely NOT the woman who is "always" in subjection in marriage in a decent society!
Both partners have their strengths and they pool their combined talents and experience and whoever is best qualified to take the lead in any given circumstance that the couple is dealing with at the moment, does so.
I agree.
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Lehaa
I believe in equatily. Total 50/50.
If a marriage or parntnership is going to work then both should have a equal say, otherwise one is always taken for granted and troden on.
I don't completely agree about the 50/50 thing, but I think I understand what you mean...Respect each other.
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Scully
I'd share my thoughts, but JWD is PG rated.You could always send me a pm. ................................................................... SoledadLove, Scully
I always wondered about this. why go from "created him" to "created them?"Exactly. I beleive the language God used was very deliberate.
I'm not sure one can fairly compare the relationship between God and Jesus to that of a husband and wife. and if such a comparison can be made, then I can't help but notice how Jesus' role seems to be so much more significant to humanity than that of his Father.
On the surface perhaps, yet it was God who set it up that way.
And why use the word "always?"
I use "always" because it is apparent to me that Headship between God and His Son and a Husband and his Wife is a permanent state... When has God or when will God every be in subjection to Jesus?
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FlyingHighNow
In a good relationship, headship need never be an issue. Both people will treat each other with respect, kindness and dignity. Neither will ever accuse the other of dominance because under those conditions no one will even dream of dominating the other.
I agree. Dominating someone is un-loving and totaly wrong!
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A Paduan
- literal interpretation of biblical matters, including those on marriage, is a baffoonery and nastiness taken well into the extreme
- the beauty of the world is astounding, and jwism is just one prison
It certainly can be.
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frankiespeaking
As far as headship in marriage no one should be head. That's so archaic. Just treat each other with respect, don't try to boss each other around and allow for differences. If you can't do that then you should not get married.
I agree, yet, there are times when 'someone' has to make a final decision.
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Maverick
My feeling is the weaker the man, the more he will hop on the headship bandwagon.
Yes, I would think it's an immaturity issue. ( I can speak from my own experiance)
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ohiocowboy
Seriously though, I think things should be 50/50 in a marriage. Marriage is a partnership, and both sides should have say in the things that matter. It would tick me off to no end how my mother would play the submission role, and talk about how theBabbleBible speaks of the woman being in submission to her husband. Even in the physical and mental abuse part of it, she would quote the scripture, and say how she must have deserved it.
Yes, no one should always talk and no one should always listen.
I'm sorry your mother went through that. I'm sure she is /was one of many who are sincerely confused.
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Obviously Secret
Our weak points and our strong points are equal in my oppinion. Just different in general. Not trying to stereotype everybody because plenty of people (hardly nobody in fact once I think about it) don't live by the stereotypes...
Agreed. And stereotyping is just another form of prejudice.
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cruzanheart
I married a man who was strong enough to stand up to my mom and make her back down (impressive all on its own), but who has given me the respect to let me grow into the person I want to be. He's been gentle but not wimpy, strong but not domineering, and the voice of reason when yours truly is flying off into 12 different directions. He also has the graciousness to admit when I'm right and the kindness not to rub it in when I'm wrong.
I think you have the kind of Husband God intended and I'm very happy for you!
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Paxil
In most relationships - women sometimes feel less than equal because of abuse - verbal or mental because men are insensitive little boys in men's bodies.
LOL, There's a lot of truth in what your saying!
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CHEVYNTATS
Therefore those things that I believe a woman should do in a marriage are done out of respect and love NOT out of obligation. But I also want to marry my partner, not a father. And the JWs put men in more of a father role of their wives. When I was engaged it irritated the hell outta me that if someone had an issue with me, they took it to my fiance instead. It was like once I got married I was suppose to offer up my identity to my husband. Well we didnt get married. 'Nuf Said.
YES, YES, YES and goood for you, you didn't trap yourself!
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KES152
The subjection that God gave to man was in the pattern of the subjection the Christ SHOWED to man. The Christ as head of the man, made himself a servant TO man. The responsibility of the head is to do everything.. for the benefit of those to whom you are head over. Up to and including.. surrendering your soul in their behalf.
Yes, serving NOT lording over.
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To ALL:
I would like to say it was not my intent to defend the abuse that is passed off as 'headship' in many marriages. I'm sorry if it at all sounded that way.
cruzanheartI married a man who was strong enough to stand up to my mom and make her back down (impressive all on its own), but who has given me the respect to let me grow into the person I want to be. He's been gentle but not wimpy, strong but not domineering, and the voice of reason when yours truly is flying off into 12 different directions. He also has the graciousness to admit when I'm right and the kindness not to rub it in when I'm wrong.I think you have the kind of Husband God intended and I'm very happy for you!
Yea, Now I want the same kind of Husband.
I married a man who was strong enough to stand up to my mom and make her back down (impressive all on its own), but who has given me the respect to let me grow into the person I want to be. He's been gentle but not wimpy, strong but not domineering, and the voice of reason when yours truly is flying off into 12 different directions. He also has the graciousness to admit when I'm right and the kindness not to rub it in when I'm wrong.
Now that is a damn good description of a real man in my opinion. GOOD FOR YOU! (and him)
