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Hello Everyone . . .(Questions)
by Frobrisher 52 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Golf
Frobisher, greetings and no need to apologize. Succintly said, "...we all have to answer for ourselves."
Guest 77
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gdt
Hello there 'black sheep'. just to say your input to this subject could not be truer! But that's my opinion, and obviously we shall get some serious disagreements.....some here have been hurt. but if we were in the 1st century congregation? not much difference. In fact, of the 7congreagtions Chirst analyses upon his return, all 6 had awful people in them, only 1 was not counselled strongly. So....where is the perfect congregation? Of the 94000 odd, not one. In the meantime, keep chins up, may all readoers please acknowledge these thoughts to yoursaelves at least if not on this site, cheers, gdt
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gdt
lousy typing, sorry, and to think i worked at IBM in management for 10 years...sorry.
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BLISSISIGNORANCE
Do you think it?s healthy to be bound together in hatred?
hate
\Hate\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Hated; p. pr. & pr. & vb. n. Hating.] [OE. haten, hatien, AS. hatian; akin to OS. hatan, hat?n to be hostile to, D. haten to hate, OHG. hazz?n, hazz?n, G. hassen, Icel. & Sw. hata, Dan. hade, Goth. hatan, hatian. ???. Cf. Hate, n., Heinous.] 1. To have a great aversion to, with a strong desire that evil should befall the person toward whom the feeling is directed; to dislike intensely; to detest; as, to hate one's enemies; to hate hypocrisy.
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer. --1 John iii. 15.Dear Frobisher, firstly, welcome, secondly, your are quite presumptious in saying we are bound together in hatred. Most of us here are bound together by suffering at the hands of the WTS. You may want to split hairs in saying, 'it wasn't the GB or WTS that hurt you, it was an individual elder, co, sister, jc, brother, blah, blah........'. Fact is the WTS claims the 6 million members are god's people.......when it suits. Yet it very quickly disowns the individual when he/she brings reproach on the WTS and makes it look bad. Every active JW is representative of the organization it names itself as a member of. Fact is the top dogs know what is going on, they know who the good elders are, and who the bad ones are. That is what the co goes around to do, check how the congos are going. Why should intelligent, thinking people stay in an organization that allows and promotes power hungry, ego maniac, women hating men to take their frustrations out on them???? Then it's turned around and the people that leave are accused of being unspiritual/non-believing people, slandered for not being VICTIMS anymore. I cannot speak for everyone here but for myself...........what I hate is the WTS's hypocricy, the way they abused (hated) us, their brothers, and that makes them our enemies. I also hate how some get pleasure out of tormenting people who are trying to find peace after enough suffering. Your manner of reproof disguised as an intellectual discussion smells so strongly like when the elders were trying to force me and my family (including my abused child) to LOVE the pedophile who abused my child and accept him because he only did it once. Being told to do this while the pedo would smirk and stare my terrified child out at the meetings was like being sexually abused and violated over and over again. Day in, day out. Having you try to defend the WTS to me while judging and condeming me is like abuse. You should repect what we have all been through and keep YOUR opinions about OUR feelings based on experiences WE had, to YOURSELF!!!!!!
Do you think it?s healthy to perpetuate yourselves as victims?
Main Entry: per·pet·u·ate
Pronunciation: p&r-'pe-ch&-"wAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Forms: -at·ed; -at·ing
: to preserve or make available (testimony) for later use at a trial by means of deposition esp. when the evidence so gathered would be otherwise unavailable or lostvic·tim ( P ) Pronunciation Key (v
n.- One who is harmed or killed by another: a victim of a mugging.
- A living creature slain and offered as a sacrifice during a religious rite.
- One who is harmed by or made to suffer from an act, circumstance, agency, or condition: victims of war.
- A person who suffers injury, loss, or death as a result of a voluntary undertaking: You are a victim of your own scheming.
- A person who is tricked, swindled, or taken advantage of: the victim of a cruel hoax.
You are so insensitive and cruel............and assuming! typical JW thinking, feeling and reasoning. Let's get one thing straight. We are NOT victims here. We are SURVIVORS and I'm proud to be associated with the wonderful people on this forum who have had to endure much just because of the religion they were involved in! Many here have lost family and friends, mostly not by choice but by rules put into place by unloving men who prefer to follow the letter of the law rather than extend mercy.if the ?truth? wasn?t for you, then you were free to leave
This is BS and I think you know it.
It seems that you try to villianize the JW?s for your disfellowshipping and the subsequence shunning that comes from former JW friends and your JW family members.
I am NOT df'ed but I do get shunned. Why? Because I make too many JWs think. I upset their state of denial. They know that my child was abused but they prefer to pretend it didn't happen and avoid me. Hey, I'm happy. They bore me anyway.
I have had the df'ing experience and I KNOW and can swear on a ton of bibles, with Jehovah as my witness that there is MUCH corruption amongst the elders. My child was sexually abused, I informed the authorities, the pedo confessed, the elders assured the authorities they would monitor and counsel the pedo, the elders told me not to tell anyone, only they were to know, the pedo went to social gatherings and played with kids, some of the mothers said they were concerned about the pedo playing with their kids, i warned them, the elders had to shut me up, they got 2 sisters to go as witnesses against me quoting something i said, which i didn't, I got df'ed for slander and the pedo laughed at me and my kid. The elders helped to keep the pedos reputation safe, while kicking me out. Oh, and my child never got a visit, a smile, or even a greeting from the elders, transparent to them! Villans???????? My god, that's to good to call them villains.
What upsets me is that most of us on this forum are shunned from people we would love to spend time with just because they are JWs. We therefore come here for fellowship and trust people with our deepest emotions. Then we STILL get brow beaten by 'indecisive ones' like yourself. If people like you and GDT love the WTS and it's rules, FINE, but DO NOT COME HERE DEFENDING IT TO ME, making me have to explain and justify my stand. Who are you that we need to explain ourselves to you? And when we answer it's still not good enough. I don't mean to talk for everyone else, but I feel strongly about having a safe haven for myself, away from the Jehovah's Witnesses and their preaching!!!!!!
I get the feeling that you should maybe go back to the WTS because your thinking and reasoning is well programmed. I really don't mean to be rude, judgemental, or shun you. But what is your purpose in coming here, really, and why don't you want to go back to the WTS????
JWs, leaving things like sexual abuse to Jehovah, is proof they are like fanatical cults saying that if god wills the child will live even without surgery,medicine, etc. Leave a child at home alone and if god wills it won't hurt itself, get electricuted, drown, eat poison etc. It's irresponsible and gutless.
Anyhow..........we should all go where we belong. I belong here with my friends. Where do you belong?
Cheers, Bliss
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seattleniceguy
Hey there, and welcome.
I won't take up a point-by-point reply, since many have, but let me just say that I do not have any hate in me. That's destructive and certainly takes too much energy to maintain. From time to time I feel angry at the pain the organization's policies cause to real people, and I post here to help others and myself.
You might think of it like a person campaigning for change in the Catholic system that has covered up child abuse. Do they hate the Catholics? Of course not. Are they rightly angered by injustice. Yes. That's the difference.
I hope you stick around for a while. There's a lot to learn here. Plus, every time FrenchBabyFace makes a post you feel like you're getting a kiss.
SNG
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Bubbamar
Bliss - I felt every word of your post. ((((Hugs))) to you and your daughter. One of the things I love about this place is the validation I get. I'm not crazy, wrong, sinful, ect. We KNOW what really goes on in the WTBTS when its members are allowed only to see one side of things.
Frobisher we are not victims. Most of us are here to recover. Recover means to get back what was lost. And speaking for myself - What I am recovering was not lost -- it was taken from me - harshly, by an organization that claims to be the organization of a god of love. You seem to still be able to recite the JW "script" - I call it a script because most JW's repsond the same way to a given situation with WT words. My mom says the same things....She shuns me because of MY CHOICES. My choice to not return to an organization that is full of hypocracy, lies and broken promises. They mislead my mom and threaten to discard her to satan if she dare read non-WT literature about the WTBTS with witch she could make an INFORMED decision.
I was DF'ed 18 years ago and although I knew I would not return I always had a nagging doubt about things. I thought I would never really know if it was the "true" religion or not. I thought I would find out when Armageddon came or once I died. But then I read Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz and found out sooner than I anticipated! I would encourage you to do some research of your own. For years I was afraid to pray because I was afraid the Witnesses would then knock on my door and I'd have to go back. Today I pray without fear and I pray everyday for my mom.
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bull01lay
Hi frobisher, welcome to the board...
In my opinion... I don't think you can make sweeping generalisations about the people on here like 'united by hatred'.... whilst there is definitely an element of hatred on this site, if you look into the backgrounds (of the people that have shared them) of those that are openly critical of the WTBTS, you would understand their positions more. Hatred works for some, as it's a means to channel energy - for me... I'm not wasting any more of my life devoting time for anything to with the organisation, serving or hating!
There is also a hell of a lot of healing on this site - having 'down' days or sharing sob stories doesn't mean you are making yourself a victim or whining!! Knowing that there are people who understand and empathise with you is a big help. And as you know, no-one here is afraid of letting you know what they think, so it can be a real kick up the virtual butt when needed!
Is it wrong for the hated apostates to hate the organisation ??? How much time is devoted by the organsiation to 'hating' the apostates, making mention of them in books, magazines, leaflets, at meetings, at assemblies ? Aren't they surely in the same league of 'united by hatred'??
Bull!
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zen nudist
First let me say, I was not DF'd [though they wanted to], I did not formally DA [though they lied and said I did] and I have no malice nor hatred for anyone JW or not....nor was my JW experience outrageous nor angering to me....I believe that most of them were and are just like me, just trying to get a handle on the world and universe we find ourselves in and latching on to what seems true and then defending it until we are CONviNcED into something else.
Who here thinks they are Jehovah God?
I have come to beileve that YHWH or Jehovah is just jewish mythology pointing the the very same unknowable ultimate reality which we are all part of.... in a sense we are all part of the one, the whole and thus we can all say, I am that I am...or I am becoming what I will become which is why YHWH supposedly means.
Who here thinks they are Jesus Christ?
After 14 years of non-JW research, I am fairly convinced that Jesus was a gnostic myth and never existed as more than a fictional character to teach people about themselves.
Who here thinks they are of the anointed?
since I no longer view a personal god as anything seperated from all of us together I would say this does not apply.
Who here thinks they are going to heaven, but are not necessarily anointed?
I now believe in reincarnation of a sort...so again not applicable.
I personally answer negative to all the above, just to be fair and answer them myself.
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Frobrisher
First off, I want to thank everyone for their replies. Some of you have questioned my motivation for coming here. I found this site completely by accident. I was looking for a web-site to make myself a corporation and stumbled across this site. (Internet search engines seem to have a mind of there own.) I got to reading, and thought I'd post my questions and thoughts, see what the reactions were, a probe of sorts. This being a public forum, I wanted to see if different points of view were accepted, or if it had a one track mind of it's own. I have tried to be diplomatic and sympathetic but straight forward and honest. I myself have experience pain and loss in my lifetime, no one gets by unscathed. I've found that the more that you fixate on the source of your pain, the less you are healing. I will say that I see those willing to help others on this site, and I commend you for it. But, there is also this nit-picking that goes on, I mean who cares if the WTS was part of the UN (and yes I've read up on it, on both sides). If that convinces you that it's a false religion, fine. . . now move on with a new life free of that.
blonde:
Hi Frobisher; while some might hate; most of what you see is outrage at the real harm WTS policies and doctrines have caused people who post here.
In my experience (and that's all I really have to draw from), outrage and such emotions rarely come from rational places. I'm not saying people should never become outraged, it's just not a good state in which to draw conclusions. I've come to may a conclusion, while outraged, that seemed sound at the time, linking up the "facts" and even convincing others, but later with a cool head and in retrospect, I was wrong. With that I've come to understand this little thing about life. . ."You can be completely right, and absolutely wrong." That one can be hard to digest, but I've found it's true from time to time.
jwbot:
They had what is called "conditional love" and that is not the type of association I can have and be mentally sound.
All love is conditional. God loves conditionally. Unconditional love is obsession, or mental illness. In all fairness to your family and friends, from their point of view, are showing love for you by shunning you. It may not be the view you subscribe to, but I don't take the shunning I get as hate for me.
avishai:
Do you think it's healthy for the brothers to not turn in a child molester, who goes on to molest tons more children? Do you? Do you think it's healthy for the brothers to cover it up, time and time again, in the interest of "Defendiing Jehovahs name"?
I think I answered that. This is not a problem isolated in the WTS, this happens in all over the world all the time. I've personally seen 2 child molesters, not related to the WTS at all, go free with the backing and support of their community.
They become addicted to the attention, so they become the perpetual victim, and whine about their wounds, but never really heal.
I think that that scenario is pretty rare.
I don't think this isn't rare at all, I think this is the base thinking of all reverse-racism, as in "Our people were oppressed for years in the past!", or "Those people come here and take our jobs!"
Poztate:
NOW...Try to write a letter that says...gee I just don't want to be a JW anymore,but I haven't done anything wrong so could I just leave with no fuss.Don't make me laugh...You would be DA'ed in the blink of an eye.No more friends..no more family.You are treated the same as DF'ed persons. They are just waiting to pull the trigger on you.
I know people who have done it. Never said there wasn't consequences, every choice we make has them. And yes, I agree it is a earthshaking move to make, my comments, in looking back, seem not to convey that.
Special K:
Since you're disfellowshipped and all your family remained as J.W.s am I to take that
you are 100% shunned by them, not welcome in their home, no phone calls, no contact...etc.
You probably haven't seen your parents and the rest of your JW family since being disfellowshipped as has been the WTS curse on a lot of us disfellowshipped. Hmm? interesting that you are not bitter about any of that kind of treatment by your family.
I am 100% shunned by my family. I doubt they would pass me by if I was bleeding on the road, but no contact. I once had an elder in my former cong. help me change a flat tire on the side of the road. I was the middle child also, so I was kinda use to feeling like I was on the outside. I also have many friends, one who chose to become one of JW, and shunned me. I'm not bitter about any of that. They get to make choices about their lives, I get to make choices about mine. They don't hate me, why should I hate or resent them? They don't shun my children, and I don't keep my children from my family. In the end, the important thing to remember is no one else defines who I am. . .only I do.
BLISSISIGNORANCE:
I also hate how some get pleasure out of tormenting people who are trying to find peace after enough suffering. Your manner of reproof disguised as an intellectual discussion smells so strongly like when the elders were trying to force me and my family (including my abused child) to LOVE the pedophile who abused my child and accept him because he only did it once. Being told to do this while the pedo would smirk and stare my terrified child out at the meetings was like being sexually abused and violated over and over again. Day in, day out. Having you try to defend the WTS to me while judging and condeming me is like abuse. You should repect what we have all been through and keep YOUR opinions about OUR feelings based on experiences WE had, to YOURSELF!!!!!!
I never ask you to feel anything, forgive anyone etc. . . I'm not the one who has hurt you! You are projecting! I haven't defended the WTS, or told you to believe they are right or wrong. . .not my place. You come here and give your pain and experiences a public voice, you've opened them to others opinions, you shouldn't take only those that make you feel good inside, take them all, weigh them and come to your own conclusions. Feel free to question me if you like, that's all I was doing.
You are so insensitive and cruel............and assuming! typical JW thinking, feeling and reasoning. Let's get one thing straight. We are NOT victims here. We are SURVIVORS and I'm proud to be associated with the wonderful people on this forum who have had to endure much just because of the religion they were involved in! Many here have lost family and friends, mostly not by choice but by rules put into place by unloving men who prefer to follow the letter of the law rather than extend mercy.
If I have been insensitive, cruel and assuming, that was not my intention and I personally apologize.
I am NOT df'ed but I do get shunned. Why? Because I make too many JWs think. I upset their state of denial. They know that my child was abused but they prefer to pretend it didn't happen and avoid me. Hey, I'm happy. They bore me anyway. I have had the df'ing experience and I KNOW and can swear on a ton of bibles, with Jehovah as my witness that there is MUCH corruption amongst the elders. My child was sexually abused, I informed the authorities, the pedo confessed, the elders assured the authorities they would monitor and counsel the pedo, the elders told me not to tell anyone, only they were to know, the pedo went to social gatherings and played with kids, some of the mothers said they were concerned about the pedo playing with their kids, i warned them, the elders had to shut me up, they got 2 sisters to go as witnesses against me quoting something i said, which i didn't, I got df'ed for slander and the pedo laughed at me and my kid. The elders helped to keep the pedos reputation safe, while kicking me out. Oh, and my child never got a visit, a smile, or even a greeting from the elders, transparent to them! Villans???????? My god, that's to good to call them villains. What upsets me is that most of us on this forum are shunned from people we would love to spend time with just because they are JWs. We therefore come here for fellowship and trust people with our deepest emotions. Then we STILL get brow beaten by 'indecisive ones' like yourself. If people like you and GDT love the WTS and it's rules, FINE, but DO NOT COME HERE DEFENDING IT TO ME, making me have to explain and justify my stand. Who are you that we need to explain ourselves to you? And when we answer it's still not good enough. I don't mean to talk for everyone else, but I feel strongly about having a safe haven for myself, away from the Jehovah's Witnesses and their preaching!!!!!!
Please clear something up for me, you are or are not Df'ed? At the beginning you say you are not, then you say you got df'ed for slander? But I'll be the first to say your situation with the Elders and those sisters sounds completely messed up. I'm not mocking your pain. Your objection seems to be that my opinions don't belong here, I don't get that. I'm not an 'indecisive one', I just not one to jump on just any bandwagon. I've been Df'ed for well over a decade. I live my life by my terms, right or wrong, good or bad. I never said I love the WTS and it's rules, and never asked you to justify or explain anything. You simply have had a knee-jerk reaction, and think you know everything about me. Wrong! I speak from no "script", are you sure you don't? Just know that there are those who would take your pain and use it to push their own agendas. I'm not saying this is being done here! But to not have considered that. . . is well gullible.
I had so much more to say, but the time I can dedicate to organizing my thoughts, and writing them down is limited. . . .perhaps I will later, if my comments are still welcome.