But you MUST let US.....guide you to him!
Lying out of both sides of their mouth like an auctioneer!
Very true, Gumby. Since the WT makes themselves the only earthly channel to God, that means that even the prayers of JWs must go through them before they can go through Jesus, including prayers, even bypassing Christ as the mediator. They make the word of God invalid?.
Thanks, cyber-sista,
This is valuable information and could actually be lifesaving to some
When I first read about hemoglobin-based products and read the 6/15/2000 WT on fractions, I wondered if they qualified because there was nothing specific. So I called the HLC, who sidestepped the issue by saying that they couldn?t tell me medically if these were safe. I had to repeat my question and say that I wasn?t asking for "medical" advice but if these were considered a blood fraction. Finally, the admitted it was. Then I called the big honchos at the hospital to see if the treatment was available, then my insurance company to see if it was covered.
I wonder how many JWs know that the last list of specific "personal decision" "non-blood" treatments was printed in the WT publications in 1991. Why no update on that? When I used that list during my last operation, the surgeon/anathesiologist (sp?) laughed because it was so outdated.
Jgnat
, I think you distilled the feelings of the average JW.
A JW with a strong conscience will feel very bad about even a minute amount of a fraction of blood, so would likely refuse any life-saving treatment. Because his eternal life is more valuable than his miserable life on this planet.
Add to that that JWs are taught that they should accommodate the consciences of others before their own. With over six million JWs, there has to be someone who is offended by what you do?
Thanks, Pete.
I was wondering if you could expand on this in another thread.
The prohibition against blood was adopted under Persian rule where in Zoroastrianism believed blood held the soul and therefore it was too sacred to be eaten. It was not part of the cult prior to the 5th century bc.
I always thought that the Israelites did not eat blood from 1513 BCE on when they received the Law. How did they interpret it and follow the decree against eating blood at Leviticus 3:17 and 17:10 as well as Deuteronomy 12:23?
It is hard, Maverick. But I just remember how little info I had when I was trying to decipher the WT?s "guidance." If this was their attempt to clarify matters, they failed.
You do a superb job of cutting through the Borg bull, but I still couldn't read it all. This bunch in New York are so delusional as to be pitiable! I don't know how you do it?
Cyberguy
. It is amazing how few JWs research their options until the moment they have to face this issue. They depend on the elders and the HLC to feed them the information while they lie on a hospital bed waiting to go for serious surgery. Few have a healthcare proxy and many have not filled out their advanced medical directive card (blood card). To the healthcare staff it looks like the elders are making the decisions (which the WTS finds embarrassing when complaints from doctors get back to them).
Thank you such much for your diligent research of this very controversial subject!
Yes, apocalypse, thanks for the additional information. I routinely review the WT study articles each week under "Comments You Will Not Hear at the WT Study."
Good point, Odrade. That is what remember, but I have not had time to research it. If anyone else already has, could you share it?
I was always led to believe that the "weak" referred to by Paul were not actually people whose consciences were lenient, but rather those who were so rigid that they were very easily offended. Insight book explanation if I recall... that was a scripture that always stuck in my throat because it is so often misused. I guess even the WTS is not above misusing it deliberately (and contradicting their own minor teachings) if it suits the present argument.
Pole
, is that what you wanted to post? Otherwise, the Tech Support forum might help. I just copy and paste (haha, don?t anyone say anything).
EDITED: How do I insert a picture here? If I do a simple copy and paste, it disappears after I reload the page.
Good experience, Bluesbrother,
There is something rather chilling today about hearing a little girl, maybe all of ten years old reading out the answer to para 11, (the final 2 sentences) ..plainly the kid can know nothing of the subject of medicine and blood, yet she parrots the words, in faith that the Organisation and her parents will look after her.
It reminds me of occasions when children given answers about sexual topics or deeper prophetical topics. Of course, many adults just read the answer out of the paragraph without any understanding too.
And a very good point
Incidentally, is it a departure in par 16
"Moreover some products derived from one of the 4 primary componant of blood may be so similar to the function of the whole componant and carry on such a life sustaining role in the body that most Christians would find them objectionable"
What does that mean? Where does that leave the average, medically uneducated dub? how are they to judge? it seems to say "Yes you haave the freedom to chose, but if you chose it , you are still wrong?
Notice they say "some products" without being specific. That will just generate more calls and letters to the WTS to determine what those are just what they didn?t want to happen. It is good to remember that many people have their finger in the pie when these articles are written and there are contradictions within and with previous articles.
True for me, Odrade,
There is no doubt in my mind that I would have died rather than take blood, should the occasion have called for it. And I would have been fully supported in my decision by family and the congregation. I had no true understanding of the blood doctrine
JWs are only given the info the WTS wants them to have not the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The first time I wondered about the scripture where the Jews were forbidden to eat blood AND FAT, I wondered to myself why the fat prohibition was dropped for Christians. I asked too and was not happy with the answer; another crack in my JW certainty.
Thanks stilla, it makes me feel my time is well-spent.
am bookmarking this thankyou Blondie - a very valuable summary with references
I wondered that too, willyloman.
This is sooooo deceitful. The WTS knows full well that the vast majority of JWs going into hospitals for surgery, more than 98% in the case of emergency surgery, are willing to take or do ANYTHING that "mother" spells out as a "conscience matter" when it comes to blood. HLC's report this all the time. The average publisher's view is, if "mother" says it's a conscience matter, then it's okay. After this study article, it's going to be interesting to see how or if this changes out on the front lines.
That?s the way I looked at it. That?s what the HLC?s told me too. They told me that they were tired of doing the rank and file?s thinking. Of course, the elders are not exception. An RN told me of a bloodless clinic that was developed in a large metro hospital. All the doctors/administrators requested was the any JW wanting to use their services, should file an healthcare proxy now before any surgery was anticipated. They had a big opening ceremony attended by the HLC in the area and many elders and other JWs. Talks were given and refreshments served and the JWs patted themselves on the back. A JW RN who worked at the hospital had been transferred over to the clinic to act as a contact/educator. A few months after the clinic was complaining that few if any JWs and filed proxies, none of the HLC or elders had. The clinic told the HLC that they would not operate on anyone that filed a proxy at the last minute. I can remember elders telling me about JWs that had not discussed the blood issue with their doctor until they are rolling them down the hall to surgery and then expect the elder (or his wife) to do the ?splaining.
X,
You could make ALLOGENEIC recombinant plasma from fractions, and it would qualify as up to christians to decide.
That is true up to a point?the one I want the WTS to explain is how any of these products are possible if the blood had been poured out and not stored.
Good point, TD, something to reason with,
In fact, their literature explicitly states that Christ did not take his literal blood into the "most holy" of the heavenly temple to present to the Father. Their literature explicitly states that Christ instead presented the "value" of his perfect human life to the Father. (I'm sure you know of references) This is how atonement was actually made and all Biblical references to atonement with Christ's blood are on this basis, understood as being metaphorical.
Therefore Witness writers are being either stupid or disingenuous (or maybe a little of both) when they appeal to scriptures where "blood" is being used as a metaphor in an attempt to deny its physical use. All metaphors must first have their basis in reality before they can even exist.
Excellent, folks, Blondie
