Headcoverings, Goals & Women's Roles

by Black Man 19 Replies latest jw friends

  • Black Man
    Black Man

    I have always felt that requiring sisters to wear headcoverings was ASSININE. I remember I had a bookstudy I conducted and we really didn't have any qualified brothers around at all or who COULD READ. So I had a sister read. The first week this happened she couldn't find a headcovering so decided to use a napkin. A GOT-DAMN NAPKIN. I said that's OK, "take the napkin off. Jehovah won't strike you down for not wearing a headcovering". From then on I really didn't even require that sisters wear headcoverings at all. Word gets back to the CO on his next visit that I don't let sisters wear headcoverings at the bookstudy when they read and he reams me out for it. He states that there are more parties involved. The sisters teach the angels submissive respect for the organization by wearing a headcovering. At the time, I just nodded my head all the while thinking that this is complete and utter BULLSHIT.

    Before I went to Bethel, I pioneered with a mature group of sisters and found that they were really at the pulse of the congregation. They knew the territory, were more adept at the doors than most of the brothers, and knew the appearance of the flock. Sure you had a couple of gossipy sisters and some that were married to moron elders and assumed an unofficial elderette status, but for the most part the group of sisters that I pioneered with were very mature and would have made excellent elders if they were men. Very practical and down to earth. Whenever I went on bible studies with them I would open and close with prayer and intersperse MEANINGFUL comments in between but I always recommended that they conduct, especially if I didn't know the student well and I would never insist on a GOT-DAMN headcovering.

    Pioneering with these sisters made me more compassionate of people's needs and more approachable. Even years later at Bethel many approached me because they felt comfortable and that I would listen. I often wondered how my previous congregation would've been if sisters were given more of a voice. They would keep the ball rolling until the weekends then the elders would come out and bark commands, micro-manage everything and just fuck the place up. I would have loved to have seen a couple of these mature sisters give talks from the platform or sit on judicial cases because they were so well-grounded and adept at using scriptues more than the brothers at the hall.

    I remember another experience wherein we used a sister to coordinate and collect parking tickets for the district convention and collect the monies (when we used to do that). She was good with numbers and very dilligent. Enter the CO who comes in for his visit and is livid that we're using a sister behind the counter "where only brothers should be" to collect money and take parking ticket orders. He ends up reaming us out and making us assign a brother to the job. The brother later completely FUCKED THINGS UP and me and another brother had to come behind him.

    Brothers were always encouraged to reach out for positions but what of sisters? Unless you married a CO or a DO, the pinnacle was the pioneer work or serving where the need was great. At Bethel you would have sisters trying to do what they could to help propel their husbands up the corporate ladder. Many however lamented that they felt empty and unfulfilled. Many of their talents went to waste.

  • Billygoat
    Billygoat

    It's so incredibly sad that this organization wastes so many talents because women are 'kept in their place'. I still think that part of the reason I got DFed was because I voiced to the elders that women were not used to their full potential in the congregation. The five elders on my judicial committee were all over the age of 60 and BOY did I get the looks for that!

    I too have conducted Bible Studies with a Kleenex on my head! Haha! It was sooo humiliating that I learned to carry a scarf in my bookbag just in case. I really did think I was sinning by not having a head-covering. Now it just seems so ridiculous! That along with so many other things I did that were ridiculous!

    I thank God daily that I am not involved in this organization!

    Billygoat

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Dearest Black Man... may you have peace!

    You said:

    "He states that there are more parties involved. The sisters teach the angels submissive respect for the organization by wearing a headcovering."

    I have never heard such... well, as you called it... 'utter BS' (ya'll know what I mean; I don't have to say it...).

    The purpose of a 'head covering' is a sign TO THE ANGELS... who are a bit 'higher' than 'earthling man'... that when prophesying, such woman is, in fact, raised HIGHER than men... AND angels. For prophesying is a DIRECT speech from God, through Christ, by means of holy spirit. Thus, when an angel sees a woman in a 'headdress' for the purpose of prophesying... they, too, are 'in subjection' to such one, as are the men to whom she is prophesying... and so must take note. (Why angels, too? Because they, too, are 'desiring to peer into' the 'sacred' things of God. Like 'earthling' man, they don't just have automatic understanding, either.)

    SOME men, however, particularly those who consider themselves religious 'leaders' and thus makers and enforcers of 'law'... have taken this sign of AUTHORITY granted to a woman by God... and turned into a means to 'honor' them! To wit: 'Sisters HAVE to cover their heads to show respect for the BROTHER(S) present.' What haughtiness! What 'raising of oneself up'!

    My Father pours out His spirit on all sorts of flesh... male AND female. However, because HISTORICALLY among Israel, women were not listened to or taken seriously, they have a means to put a 'sign' upon their heads to show when they have been granted speech and are speaking by the authority of God, through Christ.

    Does a woman ALWAYS have to cover her head? No, she does not, for having her head 'shaved' is no longer a 'disgraceful' thing in our times. In addition, there are at least two (2) incidents when such covering is not required:

    1. When all are willing to listen... in FAITH... and therefore do not NEED such 'sign'...

    2. And when the spirit forbids it, so as to bring a judgment upon the head of the one not listening anyway. Such one would no more listen if a headcovering was produced and worn, than if one were not.

    When Paul, et al., saw a woman cover her head in preparation for prophesying, I PROMISE you... they 'took note'. They understood who was REALLY speaking, and did not 'test' the spirit, but listened and accepted the 'source', rather than scrutinizing the messenger.

    In the same light, women who claim the gift of prophesying must take that gift quite seriously. It is NOT to be 'played' with or misused. If such one has NOT been told to speak but does so anyway... out of her OWN 'initiative'... she bears a 'greater judgment'. Can she make a mistake? Yes, of course she can. For as a 'chosen' one, she, too, can be 'misled'. For not every inspired expression originates with God. Satan, afterall, 'keeps transforming himself into an angel of light.'

    But the 'basis' of her 'judgment'... will be her INTENT. If her intent WAS to mislead, then she will held accountable for any and all that she 'stumble'. If her intent, however, was to be obedient to the inspired expression, but she failed to TEST that expression, she will be 'beaten'... with a 'few strokes'. Such 'beating' is not physically literally, but comes in the form of spiritual 'discipline' and correction. Which, on its own, is 'grievous'.

    Hebrews 12:4-13

    And after she has received such 'discipline' (if indeed, she willingly receives it), she then must pick up her 'torture stake' and continue to follow the Lamb. 'Discipline' is not judgment; it is a refining, a 'skimming off' of dross or 'error'. The same applies to the intent and motive of men who prophesy as well.

    In truth, when a MAN sees a woman with her head covered for the purposes of prophesying and/or praying... it is HE... and the angels... that are in subjection and HE and them... that had better start listening.

    I, myself, SJ, have spoken it to you just as I have heard it from my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Son of the Holy One of Israel, JAH OF ARMIES.

    I bid you peace, Black Man... and thank you on behalf of my 'sisters' from whom you personally sought no honor for yourself. You truly 'lightened' their 'load'.

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • Black Man
    Black Man

    It's interesting you mention that a woman with a headcovering is one who should be recognized and served by angels and men. Well the WTS certainly miscontrued that one, huh. They have always thrived on going out of their way to make people feel insignificant.

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    A careful study of the scriptures shows that all of the words written by the apostle Paul which are widely criticized as being "sexist" (including those which appear to instruct Christian women to wear head coverings) did not actually reflect the apostle Paul's own beliefs about how women should be treated in the Christian Church. The words written by Paul which I am referring to are those recorded in 1 Cor. 11:3-10, 1Cor 14:34,35 and in 1 Tim. 2:8-15.

    These words in the New International Version of the Bible read as follows:

    "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head."
    (1 Cor. 11:3-10)

    "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (1 Cor. 14:34,35)

    "I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she
    must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." (1 Tim. 2:8-15)

    Many Christians have long had a very hard time understanding how the apostle Paul could have written words such as these. Why? Because Paul encouraged Christians to, "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ." (1 Cor. 11:1) And the Bible reveals that Jesus always treated women with respect and gladly discussed spiritual things with them. ( Luke 10:36-42; John 4:7-27) And because Paul was the same man who said that, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal. 3:28) And because we know that Paul accepted both women prophets and women deacons. (Acts 18:26; 21:9 Romans16:1) And, we can't help but ask, how did Paul expect women to serve as prophets if he did not allow them to teach or even speak in church, as 1 Cor. 14:34 and 1 Tim. 2:12 would seem to indicate?

    With these things in mind, I will here discuss what I believe is strong evidence which clearly indicates that Paul was in these passages actually citing false teachings then being promoted by others for the purpose of correcting those false teachings. I'll here tell you what that evidence is.

    I am convinced that Paul's words in 1 Cor.11:3-10 described a teaching promoted by some in Corinth which the Corinthians sent to Paul for his critique. To me, Paul's words in verse 2 serve as an obvious tip-off that Paul was about to directly quote and then comment upon a false teaching that was then circulating in the Church. For in that verse Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings just as I passed them on to you."

    The next words he wrote, recorded in verses 3-10, were those in which I am convinced Paul then quoted the false teaching which the Corinthians had sent to Paul for him to comment on. That teaching was this: "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this
    reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head."

    I believe that the contents of the next several verses, 11-16, clearly show them to be Paul's rebuttal to the false teaching he had just referenced. For the words in these verses clearly rebut the arguments advanced in verses 3-10. Thus they can only be understood as being Paul's own explanation of the true Christian position on this issue, the position which Paul was really promoting. That position was this: "In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God."

    After quoting those who demanded that women wear head coverings to show their submission to men Paul said, "Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? ... LONG HAIR is given to her AS a covering." So, Paul was saying women do not need head coverings as some false teachers were demanding. Furthermore, Paul clearly pointed out that men and women were equal in the faith. "For as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God." (vs 12). This argument by Paul clearly refuted the false teachers' statement made in verses 3 and 8 that, "The head of woman is man'" because "man did not come from woman, but woman from man."

    I believe that the now common "male chauvinistic" understanding of Paul's words developed in large part due to the way in which Paul wrote. I believe that Paul's use of sharp contrasts in place of clear transitional phrases is largely responsible for causing some of what he wrote to be widely misunderstood. However, Paul's words would have been perfectly understandable by those to whom he originally addressed his letters. For they knew what Paul had previously taught on such matters. And they knew the teachings of others which they had asked Paul to comment on. However, when a third party, such as ourselves, reads the letters which Paul wrote they do not have such "inside" knowledge. And without it, it is sometimes difficult to recognize when exactly Paul was quoting false teachers and when he was actually setting forth true Christian teachings. Because of such difficulties in understanding Paul's letters I believe that many of the words Paul actually wrote for the purpose of refuting false doctrine later became widely used to promote false doctrine. And in the process I believe Paul, God and the New Testament have acquired very undeserved reputations as being "anti-woman."

    I'll now comment on 1 Corinthians 14:34 and 35. Though I normally use the NIV, I'll use the KJV here because in this passage the NIV is missing an important element. (The NWT may also be used here. For it contains the same important element.) There we read: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

    Here again, like 1 Cor. 11:3-10, I am convinced that Paul was quoting the words of false teachers for the purpose of rebuking them. How do we know this? By simply reading the three following verses, 36-38. There Paul wrote: "What? Came the word of God out from you? Or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."

    Paul identifies false teaching with either strong rebuke or by clearly pointing out the error and correcting it. Or by doing both. But he does so, as I mentioned earlier, while using minimal transitional phraseology. Here that transitional phraseology is extremely minimal. In fact, it consists of only a single word. But for Paul it only took one word to identify a false teaching. That word was one very strong word of rebuke. In case you missed it, that word was, "What?"

    Though missing from the NIV, this "particle of distinction between two connected terms," as Strong's Greek dictionary defines the Greek word used at the beginning of verse 36, is translated as "What?" in the KJV and the Amplified Bibles and as "What!" in other translations of the Bible. By Paul's use of that Greek word to begin his thoughts recorded in verse 36 it certainly appears that Paul was expressing both shock and outrage at the blatant sexism which some false teachers were then promoting as Christian doctrine. For those who question if that is truly the sentiment which Paul meant to convey by the first word he used in verse 36, the many words of rebuke which followed Paul's "What?" show beyond a doubt that he was disgusted that such chauvinistic teachings were being promoted in Christian congregations. And he reminded the Corinthians that, unlike the false teachers who were demeaning Christian women, "The things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord." (vs.37) One of the things to which he obviously here referred was his consistent teaching that in Christ, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, MALE NOR FEMALE, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal. 3:28)

    By the way, the content of this passage (1 Cor. 14:34,35) itself clearly indicates that the sentiments expressed therein could not have been those of Paul. For verse 34 says that women "are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." But, as I am sure you know, Paul was the apostle who continually preached Christian freedom and how Christians were not under the Jewish law. Thus the idea that Paul would use the authority of the Jewish law to support his teachings seems most unlikely. To me it seems quite clear, that when discussing here and elsewhere the idea that women should be treated differently than men within the Christian Church, Paul was citing the false teaching of some legalistic Jewish Christians. He was not presenting his own beliefs and teachings.

    I believe that 1 Timothy 2:8-15, like 1 Cor. 11:3-10 and 14:34 and 35, were also words written by Paul quoting false teachers. In the last verse of 1 Timothy chapter 1 the apostle Paul was explaining to Timothy about Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom he "handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme." Thus we have reason to believe that in the early part of 1 Timothy chapter 2 Paul was actually refuting some of the teachings of these men. Then in verse 7 Paul pointed out forcefully that, "I am telling the truth, I am not lying - and am a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles." I believe his words in verse 7 indicate that he was there contrasting his position as a teacher of truth with the false teachers he had just been discussing and whom he would now quote.

    With this in mind, I understand Paul's words in 1 Tim. 2:8 through the end of Chapter 2 to be a false teaching he was quoting for the purpose of exposing it as such. There Paul wrote, "I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."

    In the very next verse, in referring to what he was next to write, Paul wrote, "Here is the trustworthy saying." With these words, "Here is the trustworthy saying," I believe Paul clearly implied that the words which he had just written, namely those in the verses immediately preceding his words, "Here is the trustworthy saying," were not "trustworthy."

    As I mentioned earlier, I believe Paul's scant use of transitional phrases, clearly distinguishing his own teachings from the false teachings he sometimes cited for comment, is largely to blame for the problems we now have in understanding the passages we are here discussing. And Paul's use of such transitional phrases is certainly quite scant in this passage of scripture. Fortunately, however, we here have additional reason to understand that Paul must have here been citing the doctrine of false teachers. What reason is that? We know that Paul could not have here been presenting his own beliefs because he had already shown in 1 Cor. 11:12 that the argument, "Adam was formed first, then Eve," (1 Tim. 2:13) in no way proves that man is superior to woman. For, as Paul there pointed out, "As woman came from man, so also man is born of woman." So, why would Paul present an argument which he himself had previously shown to be flawed? ( 1 Timothy was written after 1 Corinthians ) I do not believe he would. And I do not believe he did.

    Thus I can only believe that the verses which lie between 1 Tim. 2:7 and 3:1 contain the false teachings of Hymenaeus and Alexander quoted word-for-word and shown, by Paul's comment in 3:1, to be teachings which were considered untrustworthy by Paul.

    Something which also helps us to identify the teachings recorded in 1 Tim. 2:8-15 as being those of false teachers is the fact that they are full of regulations and restrictions typical of legalistic Jewish-Christian sects which were already beginning to spring up in the first century. Such sects promoted a form of prayer, during which the men only raised their hands, common to the first century Jewish religion. They also promoted a dress code for women but not for men and in effect dictated a women's lifestyle, (leaving more money for the men or contributions for the leaders by eliminating expensive jewelry) all on the pretense that God was being served by such.

    1 Tim. 2:11,12, "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." Anyone who saw the movie "Yentyl" with Barbra Streisand can appreciate the effect such doctrine had and has on women and why Paul would condemn those who promoted it.

    I do not believe there are any other truly "sexist" passages in the New Testament. Other passages which are sometimes attacked as being sexist are, I believe, unfairly criticized. In such passages women are encouraged to be good wives and mothers and are instructed to willingly submit to their husbands at home and in their own personal lives. By doing so it is said Christian wives might be able to help win over their unbelieving husbands and be a good example of Christian humility to all. However, women are never told that they must submit themselves to men within the Church. Wives willingly submitting themselves to their husbands within their homes and
    women submitting themselves to men in general are two very different things. It should be remembered that Christian slaves were also encouraged to continue willingly submitting themselves to their masters. (Eph.6:5, 1 Pet.2:18) This did not mean that Paul and Peter considered slave masters to be superior to their slaves in any way. For within the Christian Church Paul said there was "Neither slave nor free." (Gal. 3:28)

    Paul's intent in instructing Christian wives to continue submitting themselves to their husbands and Christian slaves to continue submitting themselves to their masters was to cause Christians and Christianity to become well spoken of among the nations. Paul asked Christian wives and Christian slaves to willingly surrender outside of the Church what they were given inside of the Church, full equality with their husbands and their masters. He asked them to do so in order to help spread the good news of Jesus Christ who he and the other apostles reminded them also suffered unjustly for them. (See 1 Pet. 2:18-21)

    The scriptures reveal that in the early church men usually took the lead in most matters, as they still tend to do today. And Paul's letters were written with that fact of life in mind. But this does not mean that women were then or should be today excluded from being appointed as servants in their churches. This can be seen by reading 1 Tim. 3:8,11. There Paul wrote, "Deacons are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine .... In the same way, their wives (or "deaconesses" as in some manuscripts- see footnote in some Bibles) are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." This, of course, reminds us of what Paul wrote to the Romans: "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant (or "deaconess") of the church which is at Cenchrea." (Romans 16:1)

    Concerning Paul's words in 1 Tim. 3:2 where he said that "an overseer must be ... a husband of but one wife," some certainly use this verse to support their teaching that though Paul may have permitted women to serve as Servants or "deacons" in their congregations, he did not permit them to serve as overseers or "elders." To this I say, Bunk! Why? Because it is obvious from their context that Paul's words in 1 Tim. 3:2 did not exclude women from serving as overseers. How is this fact obvious from that verse's context? Because the context of 1 Tim. 3:2, namely verses 1-7, clearly shows that Paul's words in 1 Tim. 3:2 were meant to be understood only in a very general way.

    We can see this by the fact that he said, "An overseer must be ... the husband of one wife." Thus those who say that this verse proves that an overseer must be a man must also say that an overseer must be married. However, very few of those who say that this verse proves Paul only permitted men to serve as overseers say that it proves that Paul only permitted married men to do so. For those who say that would also have to believe that Paul did not permit widowers to serve as overseers. For a widower is not "the husband of one wife." Also to be considered is the fact that Paul said that an overseer must have "children who obey him." (verse 4) So, according to the "an overseer must be a man, because Paul said they must be husbands" logic, all overseers must also have children, but not just any children, children who still live at home. For only such children are required to "obey" their parents. But is it really reasonable to believe that in 1 Tim. 3:1-7 Paul was saying that all overseers had to be married men with young children? No it is not. For to believe this we would also have to believe that Paul required that overseers give up their positions in their congregations when and if their wives ever died and when and if their children ever died or grew up and moved out on their own. For then those overseers would no longer be "husbands of one wife" and then they would no longer have "children who obey them."

    These things show that the only reasonable way to understand 1 Timothy 3:2 is to understand that in that verse Paul was simply indicating that the majority of the time overseers were going to be men. Why? Because at the time Paul wrote his letter to Timothy few women had enough education to be "able to teach," which is what overseers largely do. (verse2) Also in the first century, before the advent of birth control, disposable diapers, clothes washers and dryers, dishwashers and TV dinners, the vast majority of women were far too busy at home to be able to take on the responsibilities of teaching and shepherding a congregation. Because of such things Paul knew that few women in the first century would be able to serve as "overseers." However, as I have here shown, Paul's words in 1 Tim. 3:1-7 no more disqualify women from serving as overseers than they disqualify widowers and men without small children from serving as overseers.

    With these things in mind we have no reason to believe that women were forbidden by Paul from serving as overseers in early Christian churches. And, that being the case, we have no reason to believe that they did not do so. The fact is we have some pretty good reasons to believe that they did in fact do so. For the fact that women did at times serve as "overseers" (aka "Bishops" or "Elders") in the early Church is supported by strong historical evidence. Consider the following: An early mosaic in a Roman basilica portrays a female figure titled "Bishop Theodora." At a burial site on the Greek Island of Thera there is an epitaph for a women Epiktas, named as a "presbytis" in the 3rd or 4th century. A Christian inscription from 2nd or 3rd century Egypt reads: "Artemidoras...fell asleep in the Lord, her mother Paniskianes being an elder [presbytera]." The bishop Diogenes in the 3rd century set up a memorial for Ammion the elder (presbytera, feminine form). A 4th or 5th century epitaph in Sicily refers to Kale the elder (presbytis, also feminine.)

    Other passages which are sometimes said to brand Paul as a sexist are Titus 2:3-5 and 1 Tim. 5:11-14.

    Titus 2:3-5: "Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God."

    These do not appear to me to be terribly sexist remarks. Though I can see that there here exists an opportunity to take offense, if one is looking for such an opportunity.

    1 Tim. 5:11-14 - "As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander."

    The early church had the custom of financially supporting widows. Here Paul was advising Timothy to no longer put young women who had lost their husbands on the list of widows who would be supported by the congregation. Why did he so advise Timothy? For one thing, when this was done it gave younger widows who were fully capable of supporting themselves too much time on their hands, time which often ended up being used in nonproductive ways. For another thing, Paul felt that many of the younger widows who were unable to support themselves were capable of finding new husbands who would support them, and by so doing they would no longer pose a financial burden to the congregation. Paul could have, and probably would have, made similar comments about young widowers, if young widowers were being supported by their congregations. But they were not. So he did not.

    With these things in mind, I do not feel it is fair to label these comments by Paul as "sexist."

    The thoughts I have here presented contain understandings I have come to after many hours of personal Bible reading, prayer, study and conversations with other Christians. I now firmly believe that the man God used to write much of the New Testament did not, as is often alleged, promote sexism. Rather, I am convinced that the apostle Paul was actually a very strong promoter and defender of full equality of the sexes within the Christian Church.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Dearest 'Christian'... may you have peace!

    A couple things, if I may:

    1. Phoebe was not a 'overseer', but a 'minsterial servant'.

    Such ones ASSISTED 'overseers' in their duties. What were the duties of the 'overseers'? The same as for everyone else... but in the lead... to 'look after widows and orphans in their tribulation'. This came into existence when all those who received holy spirit decided to combine all of their belongings and distribute them evenly so that those who were poor had also. At some point, however, certain widows felt they were being overlooked. So, the apostles, who wanted to continue on the circuit of preaching, appointed seven men by means of holy spirit to 'oversee' the distribution. These, in turn, appointed men to assist them in carrying out the distribution.

    As time went on, and more contributions were made, additional men were appointed to this task. And in some instances, for example with Paul, women were used to assist them.

    The 'ministry' is not a 'spiritual' thing; it is a VERY 'physical' thing. The word 'minister' is not the same as 'preach' or 'herald', but denotes caring for the PHYSICAL needs of someone. My Lord 'ministered' to his disciples, in that he washed their feet. That took a PHYSICAL action... and actual effort.

    2. Women were not prohibited from speaking in all congregations, but only those congregations under Roman rule. Why? Because by ROMAN law, women were not allowed to speak... in public. Although they met predominantly in homes, had it got out that women were speaking to and teaching men publicly, all could have been endangered. (Do you recall the disciples surprise that my Lord spoke to the woman at the well? It was not because she was Samaritant, which is why they SHOULD have been surprised; it was because she was a woman... and they were out in plain site. Public.) Like Judea, Corinth... was under Roman rule.

    That is why Paul referred to 'the law'. He was not speaking of the Law Covenant, for the Law Covenant contained no such provision, otherwise, Deborah would have been a transgressor of such law by means of her inspired counsel to Barak.

    If during that time, a woman put a 'sign' of authority on her head, Paul and company worried less about their fear of the Romans and more about not stopping to listen to my Father, JAH OF ARMIES, who was now evidently speaking by such woman... as evidenced by the 'sign'. You see, when two or more were 'gathered' in his name, my Lord, too, was there. Thus, holy spirit could move... ANYONE... to speak, including women. Who were the men, then, once they saw this 'sign', to say, "Hush! You can get us all killed!" They knew who in reality was speaking and that any danger was warded off by such spirit. (No, that did not stop the slaughter at the hands of the Romans, though, who used any excuse, including women speaking in public, to kill 'christians'. Sad to say, however, it was usually a Jew who turned them over - 'brother' delivering up 'brother.)

    But not all congregations were under Roman rule. Peter and others, in fact, ended up in Babylon and other places. But Paul was the predominant personality, because Paul... was an apostle 'to the nations'... and a Roman citizen. The congregations he(?) addressed, were those 'of the nations', which also included Jews/Israelites, or 'holy ones'... for after the death of my Lord in the flesh, the little flock had been 'scattered among the nations'. However, the Apostles were apostles pretty much to the Jews (and Israel) only, and preached pretty much in Judea and Samaria.

    Paul, with only the apostles Barnabas from among the 12, went to 'the distant parts of the earth'. And for the most part, the paths of the two groups did not meet. Only when Paul was first 'commissioned', then about 14 years later. He had his assignment and territory, and they had theirs.

    In addition, I absolutely understand your faith in your position, as evidenced by your statement that:

    "The thoughts I have here presented contain understandings I have come to after many hours of personal Bible reading, prayer, study and conversations with other Christians. I now firmly believe that the man God used to write much of the New Testament did not, as is often alleged, promote sexism."

    I would ask you, though, to go back and review all of the books attributed to Paul... and see if you TRULY believe that he wrote them all. In doing so, you may find that MANY of them will give you a different 'truth'.

    I bid you peace!

    Your servant, sister and fellow(?) slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • bwoga
    bwoga

    It's real all very demeaning.....why should I have to cover my head to pray in the presence of a dick?????? My prayers are as real and heartfelt as the next person's......just somemore JW bs.....with that one teaching they manage to keep all the sisters in check so to speak....then all they have to do is deal with the brothers...I forgot what the ratio is but as you know women make up the majority of JWs.......Just another control mechanism....WTS reminds me of an abusive spouse.....wants you to have nooooo independence NONE, wants you to have no personal goals or achievments that don't include them, and when you start to think for yourself and do things for yourself....then the ostricize you and criticize.....and if you begin to doubt them, then you're disciplined and well, what ever they do to you.....you were the one out of line and you deserved it....JUST BULLSHIT!

  • Black Man
    Black Man

    It's as if they're trying to say that the prayers of women are invalidated in the eyes of God without a damn headcovering. New and creative ways of producing BS........

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    Hmmm,

    These angels aren't too clever by the sound of it, all that destructive power and you need to wear a tea towel so that they know that you mean no offence?

    Englishman.

    ..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.

  • patio34
    patio34

    Black Man,

    I enjoyed your thoughts. But doesn't it all boil down to the target audience of the Bible: men, man, and only males? The Bible is replete with incidences of demeaning women.

    Some scholars contend the Hebrew scriptures are based on the Mithraic religion of the Romans in that time. The worship of Mithra was for men only. There are numerous similarities Paul from Tarsus (a center for Mithraists) wrote in his letters. A quick search on the web can verify that or a trip to the library.

    So, my point is, the wearing of headcoverings for women is just one small instance of the low opinion religion in general, and the Bible in particular, has for women.

    Pat

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