I meant Paul and his contemporaries, from the point of view (as imagined or construed by the writer) of the early orthodox of the second century. Of course, I recognize that the apostles as imagined by those in the second century are not identical to the actual personalities involved in the beginnings of Christianity.
The apostle Peter - an honest Christian or a cynical manipulator?
by Pole 20 Replies latest watchtower bible
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peacefulpete
I was just funning you
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Leolaia
Pole.....Let me know if what I posted was of any help.
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Leolaia
Here is some info on Stoic philosophy:
"Stoic psychology is inseparable from Stoic physics and cosmology. The pneuma of the human soul (pneuma psychikon) is said to be a mixture of air and fire. Some Stoics saw this soul as a literal mixture of fire and air, others associated it with a refined fire (similar to aether) or vital heat. The pneuma permeating the body was held to be a portion of the divine pneuma permeating and directing the cosmos. The human soul is a portion of God within us, both animating us and endowing us with reason and intelligence. The Stoics argued that the soul is a bodily (corporeal) substance. Although the soul is a body, it is best to avoid calling Stoic psychology materialist. The Stoics contrasted soul and matter. For this reason scholars generally prefer to call Stoic psychology corporealist, physicalist, or vitalist.
Matter is but one of two principles underlying every bodily substance. These two principles are the active [to poioun] and the passive [to paschon]. Matter is identified with the passive principle. Its complement, the active principle, is reason [logos] or God and is held to extend through matter providing it with motion, form, and structure. Both principles are bodily or corporeal principles (that is, they occupy space and are causally efficient) but neither exists in isolation. Substances can be dominated by either principle; the more active the substance, the more rational and divine it is; the more passive, the more material.
The Stoics also made a distinction between principles [archai] and elements [stoicheia]. The basic elements are earth, water, air, and fire. Earth and water are heavy, passive elements, dominated by the passive principle. Air and fire, on the other hand, are active and closely connected with sentience and intelligence. The Stoics held that the soul is nourished from the exhalations from the passive elements. Biological bodies are distinguished from non-biological bodies by the presence of a specific kind of activity associated with the presence of the active elements in the body. When the pneuma in a body is organized with a greater degree of activity, there is phusis or organic nature. Things that have phusis grow and reproduce but do not show signs of cognitive power. The pneuma that produces phusis also provides the stability or cohesion of hexis. The Stoics held that each power on this scala naturae subsumes the power below it. Plants are obvious examples of organisms that have both hexis and phusis but not soul. The next tier of this hierarchy of pneumatic activity is soul [psuchê]. The characteristic marks of this level of organization are the presence of impulse and perception. Non-rational animals have hexis [cohesive state], phusis [an organic nature], and psuchê [soul].
[Stoicism] is a life in which impulses are rational, moderate, and held in check. It is a state in which one's impulses are appropriate to and consistent with the nature of things, both regarding the truth of the judgement and the degree of the response."
There are traces of this philosophy throughout 2 Peter. In 1:4, the author notes that Christians are "partakers of the divine nature (theias phuseos)," that is, the phusis of the divine pneuma that endows the Christian with moral principles. 2 Peter 1:5-6 explicitly refers to this divine phusis as instilling rational "knowledge" (gnosis), "moral excellence" (areté), and enkrateia "self-control". The latter word is a favorite of Stoic moral philosophy, referring to the desired Spock-like control over passionate impulses. Those who do not exercise self-control are described in 2:10-11 as "indulging the flesh," "despising authority," and "railing in judgment". Most interestingly, the author characterizes such people as "animals without reason" (zóa aloga) "who were born natural" (gegennémena phusika) in 2:12. This is classic Stoic philosophy. As described in the quote above, animals have a phusis or organic nature but are distinguished from humans by lacking logos "reason". Thus, 2 Peter refers to those without self-control as like animals born with phusis but were aloga, lacking reason. Finally, 3:10-12 describes the universal conflagration expected by Stoic philosophers Seneca, Epictetus, Zeno, and others, in which fire (an active element) will consume the other stoikheia "elements". The process is cyclical in Stoicism, which is reflected in the reference to the former "heavens and earth" which "existed long ago" (in v. 5) that was destroyed by water. That was a conflagration by water, a passive element, which will be followed by a conflagration by fire, an active element, of the "present heavens and earth" (in v. 7). Then, after that, there will be "a new heavens and earth" as v. 13 describes. Thus we have a cyclic process. And in Stoicism, the conflagration is a process that takes a long time to get started and transpires over many generations until it reaches a flashpoint. This possibly underlies the mention of the conflagration in ch. 3 in the same context as the perceived "slowness" of the "day of the Lord," which the author explains as spanning as much as a thousand years.
In short, the author is familiar with Stoicism and combines this "pagan philosophy" with Christian traditions in a manner similar to Justin Martyr who flourished c. 145 (e.g. see Justin's statements on the "spermatic Logos," which is directly influenced by Stoicism).
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Pole
Leolaia!
Pole.....Let me know if what I posted was of any help.
Sure!!! Sorry for this late feedback. I am impressed and really grateful for this information. I hope you'll continue to aid some of the "honest inquirers" on this forum like myself. My skepticism abou the the Bible has so far been based on moral/philosophical/psychological grounds. But now I'm getting this historical perspective too.
Thanks again.
Cheers.
Pole
Edited to add:
Farkel,
Very witty remarks as usual. I'm very much in your line of thinking. Your writing is characterised by a high level of "to-the-pointness" :).
Narkissos,
I guess your moral assessment is fair and well-balanced. It wasn't a faked testimony of Peter who falsely claimed he was an eye-witness. Just a case of assuming authorship - "in good faith" of course :).
Pole -
LittleToe
In a secret location in an unmarked cave on the top of that unnamed mountain is a wormhole through time. It's accompanied by all sorts of rushing windy noises.
Moses went there and saw the glowing back of YHWH, Elijah went there after running away from Joyzabel, and then Jesus arrived there.
It finally spits out in 2034, and so the WTS has lots of new palaces to build at Patterson before the final event...
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Leolaia
LittleToe....The common Jewish belief at the time was that the faithful patriarchs of old, as well as other "ancient worthies" like Enoch, Elijah, and David, had ascended to heaven (specifically, to paradise which was located in third heaven according to 2 Enoch and 2 Corinthians 2:2-4), and were thus STILL ALIVE. Elijah and Enoch, as the relevant OT passages were interpreted to mean, ascended with their fleshly bodies -- though 2 Enoch depicts Enoch taking off his body as if clothes when he got to heaven. The other patriarchs (in works such as the Life of Adam and Eve, the Testament of Abraham, the Testament of Isaac, the Testament of Jacob, the Assumption of Moses, etc.) had their bodies buried with their souls ascending to heaven (accompanied by the archangel Michael) within three days after their deaths. That is why the Apostle Paul was unsure of whether he ascended to heaven "in the body or outside the body," since both were logically possible (2 Corinthians 12:3). Testament of Abraham 20:13-14 also refers to Isaac and Jacob residing in Abraham's "bosom", e.g. in his own abode.
There are traces of this concept throughout the NT. Thus we have Moses and Elijah still alive and appearing with Jesus in the Transfiguration story of Mark 9:1-13. Thus, in the Parable of Rich Man and Lazarus, the "bosom of Abraham" refers to the abode of the righteous in the afterlife (Luke 16:22), and the story subsequently presents a conversation between a still-sentient Abraham and the rich man (v. 24-31). (This is not mere allegory as the WTS claims, it accurately represents the Pharisee view on the "ancient worthies".) Thus, Jesus states that "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob ... is not the God of the dead but of the living" (Matthew 22:32). Thus Jesus was able to promise to the thief that he shall be in "paradise" on the same day of his death (Luke 23:43). Thus, Peter is made to deny the belief that King David ascended to heaven in Acts 2:34, so he could apply David's own words about himself to Jesus as a prophecy of Jesus' own resurrection. Thus, Jude reports the episode from the Assumption of Moses concerning the dispute between the archangel Michael and the Devil over Moses' body (Jude 9), a story dependent on the same conception of the afterlife.
The location of the Transfiguration scene on a secret mountain derives from old Israelite and Canaanite mythological notions about divine abodes residing at literal and/or cosmic mountains (cf. Mt. Horeb and Mt. Zion in the OT, and Mt. Hermon and Mt. Zaphon in OT and Ugaritic texts), and the traditional site of theophanies (and shrines and temples) as on the tops of hills and mountains. Specifically, the "paradise of Eden" (as the term is rendered in the LXX) in Ezekiel 28:13-16 was located on the "holy mountain of God".
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peacefulpete
Timaeus 22C-E, and other Stoics felt that the world undergoes recurrent destructions by flood and fire. Prechistian Jewish writers had adopted this notion as well, melding it with their own flood legend. Josephus even claimed that Adam had prophesied that the earth would be burned. This muddies the question again of direct influence. Was it that the Christian writer was familar with and emmulating Stoicism directly or throught the Jewish filter.
Just to confuse matters worse some camps of Judaism did have a physical resurrection doctrine. So it would be mistaken to assume that all Jews felt like the Pharisees in regard ascension to heaven. We of course find both ideas in the NT.
4 Ezra 7:32 The earth shall restore those who sleep in her, and the dust those who rest in it, and the chambers those entrusted to them.
1 Enoch 51:1 In those days, the earth will also give back what has been entrusted to it, and Sheol will give back what it has received, and hell will give back what it owes.
Sib. Or. IV ...God Himself will refashion the bones and ashes of humans and raise up mortals as they were before.
2 Baruch 50:2ff For certainly the earth will then restore the dead. It will not change their form, but just as it received them, so it will restore them.
Pseudo-Phocylides 103-4 ...we hope that the remains of the departed will soon come to light again out of the earth. And afterward, they will become gods.
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peacefulpete
Some interesting bits from the Jewish Encyclopedia, note the precedents to Paul's claim to have ascended to heaven for a revelation:
The translation to heaven of a few chosen ones, either to remain there in lieu of dying, or merely to receive revelations and then to return to earth. The ascension s of Enoch (Gen. v. 24) and Elijah (II Kings ii 11) were of the former nature. Among the Babylonians and the classic peoples of antiquity the belief was wide-spread that extraordinarily pious men who had led blameless lives were permitted by God to leave the world without suffering death. The Babylonian legends tell of Xisuthros that he was caught up into heaven because he found favor in the sight of God (Berosus, ed. Richter, 1825, p. 57; Eusebius, [Armenian] ed. Mai, p. 14), and of Etana-Gilgamesh riding on an eagle to heaven , "whence the earth appears as a hill and the sea as a basin" (see Harper, in Delitzsch and Haupt's "Beiträge zur Assyriologie," ii. 391-408; and Jastrow, "Religion of Babylon and Assyria," pp. 520-522); the latter reappears in the Alexander legend (see Yer. 'Ab. Zarah iii. 42c; Meissner, "Alexander und Gilgamos," p. 17). The Biblical accounts of the ascension s of Enoch and Elijah do not therefore contradict the different theories on death found in Genesis (compare Death), which latter do not exclude exceptions. In addition to the first two mentioned, other personages are spoken of in post-Biblical accounts as not tasting death (II Esd. iv. 26). The apocryphal literature includes Baruch among such men ("Apocalypse [Syriac] of Baruch," xiii. 3), and so does the rabbinical literature (compare Baruch, in Rabbinical Literature), as well as Ezra (II Esd., end) and Moses ("Assumptio Mosis," x. 12), and this notwithstanding that the latter's death is definitely mentioned in the Bible.
In Rabbinical Literature.
The following list of persons who were taken up into heaven is found in rabbinical literature: Enoch (Biblical); Elijah (Biblical); Eliezer, Abraham's steward; Ebed Melek, Zedekiah's Ethiopian slave, who rescued Jeremiah from death (Jer. xxxviii. 7 et seq.); Hiram of Tyre, the builder of Solomon's Temple; Jabez (I Chron. iv. 10 et seq.); Serah, Asher's daughter; Bithiah (I Chron. iv. 18); Pharaoh's daughter, the foster-mother of Moses; and of later times the amora Joshua b. Levi, and a grandson of Judah ha-Nasi, whose name is not given (Yalḳ., Gen. 42; Ezek. 367; Derek Ereẓ Zutta i. end; compare Epstein, "Mi-Ḳadmoniyot," pp. 111, 112, and Kohler, "The Pre-Talmudic Haggada" in "Jew. Quart. Rev." v. 417-419). According to the Rabbis, all these personages are in paradise, which in later times was supposed to be heaven ; therefore, the Bible may well say that Elijah ascended into heaven ; see also Jonah, in Rabbinical Literature .
In addition to these there are others who ascended into heaven temporarily, returning after a time to the earth. The Biblical prototype of these is Moses, who went up unto God in order to receive the Torah; and the later legends mention several pious men, who, like Moses, received instruction and revelation in heaven , accounts of which are given in the apocryphal works The Apocalypse of Abraham , Testament of Abraham , Apocalypse [Greek] of Baruch
. In post-Biblical times, also, persons received revelations in paradise. Paul is not the only one who believed himself to have been taken up into heaven ; for a generation later the Jews spoke of the four rabbis who entered paradise. Although various attempts were made to interpret this passage (Ḥag. p. 14b; Tosef., ib. ii. 3) allegorically or figuratively, as early as the gaon Samuel b. Hophni, who was followed, mutatis mutandis, by Grätz in modern times, the expression -
Leolaia
Yes, Josephus (Antiquities 1.2.3) does indeed refer the conflagration by fire as a prophecy of Adam (and the same can be found in the Jewish Sibylline Oracles) and so the Hellenistic concept was indigenized somewhat into Judaism but what Josephus lacks is the specific Stoic vocabulary used by the author of 2 Peter.... enkrateia, phusis, aloga, stoikheia, etc. Moreover, the conception of the conflagration in 2 Peter 3:10, 12 has the "elements" melting (téketai "turn to liquid," which occurs only here in the NT) and "dissolving" (luomenon) which distinctly recalls the Stoic concept of transmutation of the elements during the conflagration, which itself derives from Aristotlean and Platonic concept of elementary transmutation. The following passage from Plato's Timaeus, for instance, uses the word luó "dissolve" with respect to the stoikheia "elements," a usage paralelled in 2 Peter:
"The pyramid (puramidos) is the solid which is the original element (stoikheion) and seed of fire (puros kai sperma); and let us assign the element which was next in the order of generation to air (aeros), and the third to water (hudatos)....From all that we have just been saying about the elements or kinds, the most probable conclusion is as follows: earth (gé), when meeting with fire (puri) and dissolved (dialutheisa) by its sharpness, whether the dissolution (lutheisa) take place in the fire itself or perhaps in some mass of air or water (eit' en aeros eit' en hudatos), is borne hither and thither, until its parts, meeting together and mutually harmonising, again become earth (gé genoito)." (Plato, Timaeus 55d-57d)
Compare 2 Peter 3:10 which says that the "elements" (stoikheia) will be "dissolved" (luthesetai) and the "earth" (gé) would be "burnt up" (katakaésetai), or "laid bare" (heurethésetai) as some mss. read. Although the wording reflects Greek philosophy, the expectation that the heavens and earth would pass away is also found in Matthew 24:35 and Revelation 21:1 and it is an interesting contrast to the official Watchtower view that earth would remain forever, instead of what is clearly taught in 2 Peter and other texts about the complete dissolution of all creation.
Just to confuse matters worse some camps of Judaism did have a physical resurrection doctrine. So it would be mistaken to assume that all Jews felt like the Pharisees in regard ascension to heaven.
Of course, and I would not claim that as well. There would have been much disagreement on exactly who went to heaven or whether such ascensions can follow the experience of death, as well as where "paradise" was located, and so forth. However I should point out that a belief in the resurrection does not at all conflict with the temporary ascension of certain "ancient worthies" to heaven. The Testament of Abraham made a point about protecting Abraham's body before it was buried, and this is probably the concern in the Assumption of Moses and the Epistle of Jude concerning Moses' body. Such concern for the body possibly betrays an interest in a future resurrection.