Holy Terror

by patio34 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • patio34
    patio34

    Hi, This was on the front page of the Opinion section of the LA Times yesterday (Sunday). It's pretty interesting how religion could use some examination--even the US religions. I highlighted parts and also put a phrase in red. What do you think? I know some of this goes with the JWs, but we also know the damage JW religion can do! The US is reportedly more religious than any industrialized countries and is about the level of Bangladesh in being fundamentalists or at the 17th century phase, I read somewhere else. The theory being given is that we have very little real participation in politics and hence turn to religion to be active in the community. Anyway, here's the article: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ latimes.com


    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-op-harris15aug15,0,2633327.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

    Holy Terror

    Religion isn't the solution -- it's the problem

    By Sam Harris
    Sam Harris is the author of "The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason," published this month. He can be reached at www.samharris.org

    August 15, 2004

    President Bush and the Republicans in the Senate have failed ? for the moment ? to bring the Constitution into conformity with Judeo-Christian teachings. But even if they had passed a bill calling for a constitutional ban on gay marriage, that would have been only a beginning. Leviticus 20:13 and the New Testament book of Romans reveal that the God of the Bible doesn't merely disapprove of homosexuality; he specifically says homosexuals should be killed: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death."

    God also instructs us to murder people who work on the Sabbath, along with adulterers and children who curse their parents. While they're at it, members of Congress might want to reconsider the 13th Amendment, because it turns out that God approves of slavery ? unless a master beats his slave so severely that he loses an eye or teeth, in which case Exodus 21 tells us he must be freed.

    What should we conclude from all this? That whatever their import to people of faith, ancient religious texts shouldn't form the basis of social policy in the 21st century. The Bible was written at a time when people thought the Earth was flat, when the wheelbarrow was high tech. Are its teachings applicable to the challenges we now face as a global civilization?

    Consider the subject of stem-cell research. Many religious people, drawing from what they've heard from the pulpit, believe that 3-day-old embryos ? which are microscopic collections of 150 cells the size of a pinhead ? are fully endowed with human souls and, therefore, must be protected as people. But if we know anything at all about the neurology of sensory perception, we know that there is no reason to believe that embryos at this stage of development have the capacity to sense pain, to suffer or to experience death in any way at all. (There are, for comparison's sake, 100,000 cells in the brain of a fly.)

    These facts notwithstanding, our president and our leaders in Congress, many of them citing religious teachings, have decided to put the rights of undifferentiated cells before those of men and women suffering from spinal cord injuries, full-body burns, diabetes and Parkinson's disease.

    Of course, the Bible is not the only ancient text that casts a shadow over the present. A social policy based on the Koran poses even greater dangers. Koran 9:123 tells us it is the duty of every Muslim man to "make war on the infidels who dwell around you." Osama bin Laden may be despicable, but it is hard to argue that he isn't acting in accord with at least some of the teachings of the Koran. It is true that most Muslims seem inclined to ignore the Koran's solicitations to martyrdom and jihad, but we cannot overlook the fact that some are not so inclined and that some of them murder innocent people for religious reasons.

    The phrase "the war on terrorism" is a dangerous euphemism that obscures the true cause of our troubles, because we are currently at war with precisely a vision of life presented to Muslims in the Koran. Anyone who reads this text will find non-Muslims vilified on nearly every page. How can we possibly expect devout Muslims to happily share power with "the friends of Satan"? Why did 19 well-educated, middle-class men trade their lives for the privilege of killing thousands of our neighbors? Because they believed, on the authority of the Koran, that they would go straight to paradise for doing so. It is rare to find the behavior of human beings so easily explained. And yet, many of us are reluctant to accept this explanation.

    Religious faith is always, and everywhere, exonerated. It is now taboo in every corner of our culture to criticize a person's religious beliefs. Consequently, we are unable to even name, much less oppose, one of the most pervasive causes of human conflict. And the fact that there are very real and consequential differences between the major religious traditions is simply never discussed. Except by JWs--Patio

    Anyone who thinks that terrestrial concerns are the principal source of Muslim violence must explain why there are no Palestinian Christian suicide bombers. They too suffer the daily indignity of the Israeli occupation. Where, for that matter, are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation far more brutal. Where are the throngs of Tibetans ready to perpetrate suicidal atrocities against the Chinese? They do not exist. What is the difference that makes the difference? The difference lies in the specific tenets of Islam versus those of Buddhism and Christianity.
    There are now more people in our country who believe that the universe was created in six solar days than there were in Europe in the 14th century. In the eyes of most of the civilized world, the United States is now a rogue power ? imperialist, inarticulate and retrograde in its religiosity. Our erstwhile allies are right not to trust our judgment. We elect leaders who squander time and money on issues like gay marriage, Janet Jackson's anatomy, Howard Stern's obscenities, marijuana use and a dozen other trifles lying at the heart of the Christian social agenda, while potentially catastrophic problems like nuclear proliferation and climate change go unresolved.
    We elected a president who believes the jury is still out on evolution and who rejects sound, scientific judgments on the environment, on medical research, on family planning and on HIV/AIDS prevention in the developing world. The consequence, as we saw in recent elections in Spain, is that people who feel misled and entrapped by our dogmatic and peremptory approach to foreign policy will be unable to recognize a common enemy, even when that enemy massacres hundreds of people in their nation's capital.

    It is time we recognize that religious beliefs have consequences. As a man believes, so he will act. Believe that you are a member of a chosen people, awash in the salacious exports of an evil culture that is turning your children away from God, believe that you will be rewarded with an eternity of unimaginable delights by dealing death to these infidels ? and flying a plane into a building is only a matter of being asked to do it. Believe that "life starts at the moment of conception" and you will happily stand in the way of medical research that could alleviate the suffering of millions of your fellow human beings. Believe that there is a God who sees and knows all things, and yet remains so provincial a creature as to be scandalized by certain sexual acts between consenting adults, and you will think it ethical to punish people for engaging in private behavior that harms no one.

    Now that our elected leaders have grown entranced by pseudo-problems like gay marriage, even while the genuine enemies of civilization hurl themselves at our gates, perhaps it is time we subjected our religious beliefs to the same standards of evidence we require in every other sphere of our lives. Perhaps it is time for us to realize, at the dawn of this perilous century, that we are paying too high a price to maintain the iconography of our ignorance.

    If you want other stories on this topic, search the Archives at latimes.com/archives.
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    Copyright 2004 Los Angeles Times

  • Robdar
    Robdar

    Islam does not consider Christians or Jews to be the infidel because all 3 worship the same God. Also, the Quran mentions the birth of Jesus. Christ was considered to be a prophet--his conception by Holy Spirit, but not as great a prophet as Muhammed.

    It is the atheist who is considered to be the infidel.

  • myauntfanny
    myauntfanny

    I do have a problem with his point of view. Not about religious extremism and religious conflict, his point there is obvious. But he's as secure in his assumptions about things like whether or not a foetus has a soul and evolution being a "fact" as the Christians are in the opposite direction.

    An awful lot of people believe in the soul, and a prime cause, and think vaccination is dangerous, and have doubts about the whole superrationalist world view. These people are not necessarily religious fanatics or lunatic fringe. A lot of them don't believe in the bible at all. They are just people who aren't willing to take scientists' opinions as dogma any more than they are willing to take Billy Graham's opinion as the word of god. A little more respect for a different point of view on BOTH sides might leave some room for negotiotion.

    I think it is unfortunate that the Democratic party is so closely identified with this superrationalist point of view because us more agnostic progressives find it difficult to get truly aligned with it.

  • heathen
    heathen

    Interesting read . I personally think that things like stem cell research and gay marriage are something that needs public input . IMO we elect representatives who are supposed to listen to our voices not direct our decisions using out dated religious dogma . I think Ron Reagan jr. had a point when he said that the US is killing people all over the world so what's the big friggen deal with stem cells ? Scientists already use stem cells and such for other things . I personally don't like it much and if asked would vote against it but I am only one voice . I don't think the christian sector are as apt to do suicide bombings and such but do kill all the time . I guess it's fanatical to kill yourself while killing others ?

  • patio34
    patio34

    Thanks Robdar for that bit about Islams and their view of infidels. I hadn't seen that before.

    My AF, I guess I'd be a superrationalist if I understand your use of it. He was juxtapositioning only the two viewpoints and of course, there's room for more as you pointed out.

    Heathen, Lol, about being a fanatic only if you kill yourself while you kill others. I guess the suicide bombers would be happy to fly planes to let their bombs go so they don't have to kill themselves, but they don't have any.

    Thanks all,

    Pat

  • greven
    greven

    Robdar,

    The Koran might not consider Jews or Christians infidels, it is not very friendly towards them either:

    2:61 (the cow) And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them [jews] and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah's revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression.
    2: 62 Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
    2: 96 And thou wilt find them [jews] greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom. Allah is Seer of what they do.

    And 'infidels' does not only mean Atheists either:

    2: 257 Allah is the Protecting Guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities . They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein.

    some texts (3:85; 4:14; 4:56) do give the impression that only Muslims will be acceptable to Allah, contradicting 2:62 above:

    3: 85 And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
    4:14 And whoso disobeyeth Allah and His messenger and transgresseth His limits, He will make him enter Fire, where he will dwell for ever; his will be a shameful doom.
    4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

    As is rather clear the Koran is like the Bible: full of contradictions, however one thing is sure: the Muslim considers himself to be in possession of the only truth and all those that oppose this truth awaits death, either directly by Allah, or by his servants in Holy War (Jihad). Participating in waging Holy War against the infidels is not voluntary, according to the Koran but a sacred duty.

    Greven

  • dh
    dh
    As is rather clear the Koran is like the Bible: full of contradictions,

    in islam the term they use is 'abrogation' since muhammed recieved his revelation over a 40 year period, the message changed a great deal with the times, hence the 'abrogation', muslims will deny absolutely that there is any contradiction.

    the actual quran itself as a volume was not compiled until after the death of the prophet (if you believe he was one) by one of his closest companions, the first kaliph of islam, abu bakr, who used to call the azaan (call to prayer) from the kaaba (the big black box) in saudi, which muslims believe was built by the father/son duo that jews and xtians call abraham and ishmael.

    note: it is commonly taught (in the disorganised way islam is taught) that the bible was altered and in fact gods blessing passed NOT through Isaac, but through Ishmael, and that's why saudi is sacred, because of abraham building the kaaba there, long before islam was born.

    anyway back on topic.

    there are points where the quran says to 'respect the people of the book' i.e. jews & christians, but the context of this is only if these 'people of the book' accept that muhammed is the messanger of allah. it is not a blanket statement. those who do not accept this (which no jews or xtians do) are kfr/kafir, (infidel), and subject to the full punishment of the law.

    the other funny thing about the quran is that it is not meant to be understandable by a lay person, so whatever any of you, or i say to try to understand it, if we don't have the intention to believe it, we will NEVER understand it, so no use trying!

    in islam you are taught things to the effect of having to conform to the five pillars of islam before you will be able to understand anything, and if you want to understand what something means, you ask an imam, peer, scholar, or whoever your particular sect reveres the most, because you will be told that you can't understand it alone, and most scholars have their own views, i know because i have talked to many educated muslims through my life, and almost always when they run out of ways not to convince me, they refer me to someone else higher up the chain, a chain in which there is no real order.

    the other thing about islam (there are so many 'things') is that muslims are taught to believe the bible Taurat (Torah/Books of Moses) (Zebur/Psalms) & Injil (Gospel), BUT that the quran came after them, so whatever they said is out of date. however i have a palestinian friend, living in the US now, who used to blow jews up in palestine, and was there when the intifada happened, who actually converted from Islam TO Christianity, and is now shunned by his entire Muslim/Palestinian family, and in the world, is one of the most outspoken Palestinains on the subject, written books/essays on the subject, debates on the radio, and rips the quran apart openly, i helped edit some of his papers when i was younger, solid man, changed man, and a man who is well and truly marked for death, BUT, when he read the Bible, to him it was truth and the quran was lies, so he set about proving it blow by blow. you will find a lot of his work on http://answering-islam.org.uk/Walid.

    anyway, having spent years around it, i can comfortably say that islam is THE most disorganised religion in the world.

    that's not an insult, it's a fact and educated muslims all over the world do not deny it.

    this being said however i can also say that if it was organised, islam would rule the world, without question.

    sorry if that was a bit of an off topic rant.

    (edited to add: it would rule the world without question because it would kill everyone else, or kill to the point where it realised its own wrongdoing and evolved beyond what it would have done otherwise)

  • outoftheorg
    outoftheorg

    ROBDAR

    IF MUSLIMS DON'T CONSIDER THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS TO BE INFIDELS, WHY DO THEY

    WANT TO KILL ,ESPECIALLY THE JEWS AND ALSO THE CHRISTIANS?

    ACTUALLY ANYONE WHO IS NOT A MUSLIM AND WILL NOT REPENT AND BECOME ONE IS TO BE KILLED AS THEY ARE LOOKED DOWN AS BEING INFIDELS.

    ARE THERE NOT SPECIFIC STATEMENTS OF THIS KIND IN THE KORAN??

    THEN THEY WILL BE BLESSED BY GOD FOR DOING SO.

  • Robdar
    Robdar

    The Koran might not consider Jews or Christians infidels, it is not very friendly towards them either:

    2:61 (the cow) And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them [jews] and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah's revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression.

    Correct, unfriendly but not blood thirsty.

    2: 62 Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
    2: 96 And thou wilt find them [jews] greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom. Allah is Seer of what they do.

    2:62 Says that Muslims, Jews and Christians, who all believe in Allah (Allah is only the Islamic name for the God of Abraham--they all worship the same God) will get their reward from the Lord. It does not say that only the followers of Muhammad were going to get their reward.

    And 'infidels' does not only mean Atheists either:

    2: 257 Allah is the Protecting Guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities . They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein.

    Okay, Atheists and idolators.

    some texts (3:85; 4:14; 4:56) do give the impression that only Muslims will be acceptable to Allah, contradicting 2:62 above:

    3: 85 And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
    4:14 And whoso disobeyeth Allah and His messenger and transgresseth His limits, He will make him enter Fire, where he will dwell for ever; his will be a shameful doom.
    4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

    Since Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship Allah, all are acceptable to him.

    As is rather clear the Koran is like the Bible: full of contradictions, however one thing is sure: the Muslim considers himself to be in possession of the only truth and all those that oppose this truth awaits death, either directly by Allah, or by his servants in Holy War (Jihad). Participating in waging Holy War against the infidels is not voluntary, according to the Koran but a sacred duty.

    Greven,

    The Muslim considers all 3 religions to be "sisters of the book". Muslims are not our enemies. It's the fundamental Muslim that is waging Jihadagainst everybody-- including other Muslims.

    IMO, all religious fundamentalists should be looked upon with suspicion.

  • Robdar
    Robdar
    ROBDAR

    IF MUSLIMS DON'T CONSIDER THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS TO BE INFIDELS, WHY DO THEY

    WANT TO KILL ,ESPECIALLY THE JEWS AND ALSO THE CHRISTIANS?

    ACTUALLY ANYONE WHO IS NOT A MUSLIM AND WILL NOT REPENT AND BECOME ONE IS TO BE KILLED AS THEY ARE LOOKED DOWN AS BEING INFIDELS.

    ARE THERE NOT SPECIFIC STATEMENTS OF THIS KIND IN THE KORAN??

    THEN THEY WILL BE BLESSED BY GOD FOR DOING SO.

    Out of the org, please read my statement to Greven above. I do not know who has been telling you the above. Whomever it is, is misinformed.

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