What do you know? And, How do you know it? (page 2)

chappy

In the beginning I only knew what I was told to believe. Later I began to understand where they were coming from. Eventually I gained the wisdom to see it for what it is.

chappy

Xena

Rememer how certain you were as a JW?

I wasn't

You just KNEW what you knew was right 100%

No I didn't

You staked your life on it, didn't you?

Noooo, I lost a few years because I allowed myself to drift along in a religion adopted by my family but I highly doubt I would have given my life for it (I woudn't have died for a brother either....I kinda sucked as a dub)

But, now you look back and find you were "dead" wrong!

It appears that the religion has some "issues" to say the least

What have you done to change your methodology of being CERTAIN?

Nothing...I'm still not certain about much, I just try less now to convice people otherwise.

Have you done anything at all? Have you just traded one set of beliefs for another? What is different?

Prior I had a set of beliefs I professed but in my heart did not believe...no I am open to all belief in my heart but profess at this time none of them.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW? HOW DO YOU KNOW IT?

I know that I will never know or have all the answers, but that's OK....How do I know it? common sense.

logansrun

I'm actually going through a paradigm shift right now. Absolute certainty? It's chimerical.

B.

LittleToe

Craig:
When one drops illusion, piece by piece, what is left?

The "ego" is not "I".

And yet "I" exist and "am".

When the dross is removed and nothing else exists, the gem surfaces.

LT, "obtuse" class

poppers

Right on LittleToe. A little twist to "I am" - who can say "I am not"? If they do what let's them know that they are not?

Terry

Logansrun says: Absolute certainty? It's chimerical.

B. ********************************************************************** Notice how certain he is that it is chimerical? :) ******************************************************************************* One thing philosophy offers not found in other disciplines; shaky reasoning is self-refuting. To offer the argument that "nothing is certain" is to often a statement of certainty. To offer the argument that "nothing is absolute" is to make an absolute statement. To say "there is no knowledge" is a statement of knowledge. If someone says to you: "There is no proof of existence" Ask them: "Who said that?" To say "all is illusion" is a statement that purports clarity of vision. I blame Plato and Immanuel Kant and their ilk for the attack on man's only defense against chaos: his mind. If you want to control others you must destroy their self-defense, which is their rational mind. If you wish to be controlled by others you must surrender your will to think on your own. I submit that there are only two kinds of thinkers. One kind builds on the idea that what "is" can be identified and known. The other destroys by saying "we cannot know". The evidence of which philosophy produces wisdom, progress and life above survival level speaks for itself. The tyrants of history step into the breech between man's knowledge and his doubts. The tyrants seize the initiative. Tyrants inform you that you CANNOT know anything and that you are nothing. Tyrants proceed to fill that empty space with their own agenda. Tyrants are always mystics. A mystic has a secret connection to knowledge which they assert is real. If you want to "know" you must deal THROUGH them. The tyrants and mystics always become a go-between; a mediator between man and ultimate "truth". When you let go of your own steering mechanism your life ceases to be your own. Surrender your mind and you cease to exist as the individual. The slavemaster don't want individuals who think, who question, who protest and who disagree. The slavemaster only wants obedience. The warning bell that must ring the loudest? OBEY! The above illustrates why I asked the question: WHAT do you know? and HOW do you know it? Ask yourself: What is the difference between the actions of a drowning man and a swimmer?

onacruse

Ross:

And yet "I" exist and "am".

So perhaps that's as simple and complete a statement of our being as can be said: Because I am, therefore I am.

Reminds me of the basic meaning of Yahweh (I AM THAT I AM), and the Genesis account about "we will create them in our own image."

SheilaM

What have you done to change your methodology of being CERTAIN?

I now read and investigate everything on both sides of issues and still find myself indecisive on most things.

bikerchic

I think chappy hit the nail on the head at least for me:

In the beginning I only knew what I was told to believe. Later I began to understand where they were coming from. Eventually I gained the wisdom to see it for what it is.
chappy

That statement reminds me of the Serenity Prayer said by so many recovering alcholics:

God grant me the serenity

to accept the things I cannot change,

courage to change the things I can,

and the wisdom to know the difference.

Simplistic as it may seem and I've said it before the knowledge comes from within, the change comes from within and you achieve that by doing the self work of learning. What is good for you may not be good for the next person but staying true to yourself once you've defined yourself and your beliefs you are what you are and allow others to be the same.

The above illustrates why I asked the question: WHAT do you know? and HOW do you know it? Ask yourself: What is the difference between the actions of a drowning man and a swimmer?

What do I know? How do I know it?

Those two questions for me have the same answers; it's my life experiences and allowing myself to be teachable, IE learn from experience then I know.

What is the difference between the actions of a drowning man and a swimmer?

For the drowning man he ends his life in regret, most immediately that he never took the time to learn to swim, hence the lesson for me is to keep learning.

For the swimmer he's faced another one of life's challenges and because he's done the work of learning of KNOWING how to swim at least for this time he's risen to the challenge and had the knowledge to survive .Hence the lesson for me is to keep open to the process of change while learning.

The mind is a terrible thing to waste, yet life really is simple. Keep it simple stupid is an oxymoron, keep it simple while learning everything you can and pay attention to the subtleties in life is more like it.

Edited to add:

Remember how certain you were as a JW?
You just KNEW what you knew was right 100%
You staked your life on it, didn't you?
But, now you look back and find you were "dead" wrong!
What have you done to change your methodology of being CERTAIN?
Have you done anything at all? Have you just traded one set of beliefs for another? What is different?
WHAT DO YOU KNOW? HOW DO YOU KNOW IT?

I'm not sure I ever really accepted that JW's were 100% right, if I did I would have done everything possible to be a very good JW. The fact that I didn't helped me to see later that I really had many doubts.

Getting into doing some healing work with ACOA's taught me to look at the Witness's much differently and my doubts gave way to the realization that they didn't have the answers, weren't 100% right and infact are a dangerous cult.

You may find your exit away from them through a higher education or through a different spiritual shift, whatever, just so long as you find your way away from them. I can only trust that once bitten twice shy and fewer of us recovering JW's would ever find ourselves in another cult with a different name.

I know what I know about JW's by having been one and I know that I would never do that again!

Kate

Terry

SheilaM said:

Simplistic as it may seem and I've said it before the knowledge comes from within, the change comes from within and you achieve that by doing the self work of learning.

**********************************************************************************************************

Could you clarify a bit for me? I'd make sense of your statement the following way. (Correct me if I am wrong in stating it this way)

My mind is like my kitchen. I bring ingredients in from OUTSIDE. Once inside I take those ingredients and combine them with a recipe of my own choosing and create a meal fit for consumption; delicious and nutritious.

Or, are you saying you are born with your kitchen already stocked with ingredients?

If the latter, could you expand on that for me? Thanks.

What do you know? And, How do you know it?

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