Another example of WTS anthropology - The Flood and racial differences

by Pole 51 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Just a silly question here: Is the geographic location of a population the only factor involved? Especially in modern societies?

    True, human populations are no longer isolated and there is a lot of mixing in modern societies. So this is assuming that the population in Australia is not substantially infused with new arrivals from colder climates.

    leoleia - why don't you think the Black sea "hypothesis" holds any water? After having read the book, it stands out 100 % clear that there WAS a flood in that area and a resulting diaspora of the peoples of the region. So why do you use the word "hypothesis"? Because you do not believe in the Black sea flooding, or because you do not believe that fllod was the basis for the Noachian flood story?

    No, I don't mean I dispute the geological event but rather that it is the catalyst of the Mesopotamian Flood legend. It could have had an influence in starting or sustaining deluge traditions in the millenia preceding the Sumerian and Akkadian civilizations. But since the Sumerian Flood legend was first written around 2600 BC (corresponding to the time when writing began to include literature instead of mere record-keeping) and the Black Sea flood occurred around 5600 BC, there would have been an intervening period of 3,000 years of oral transmission of the flood story -- and that is a time depth too great for historical reminiscences to survive beyond mythological archetypes. It is the equivalent of someone today recalling a historical event from 1000 BC that was not recorded in any literary source. The phenomenon is well attested in cultural anthropology. For instance, the Eskimos of Greenland have a few genuine reminiscences of the Vikings who lived on their land at the time the Eskimos settled Greenland in the 1300s. That is a time depth of 700 years. But if you examine the actual stories the Eskimos tell about the Vikings -- these are not based on any real historical events but are based on general Eskimo legends and folktales that are common to Eskimo culture all throughout North America and even Siberia. Thus, after the passage of only 700 years, memories of the historical Vikings have already started to pass into the realm of myth and legend. The Jews living in Judea around 600 BC already thought of the ancestral population of Canaan at the time of the Israelite conquest (e.g. 1200 BC) as primeval legendary giants. That is at a time depth of 600 years, but still there are historical memories embedded within the legends. But a time depth of 3,000 years? It is like a Bible writer from that time reproducing a historical memory from 3600 BC from oral tradition. That was a time of pure legend and myth from the standpoint of the late First Temple period. My point is that whatever historical reminiscence of the Black Sea flood would have dissolved by 2600 BC into the general universal Flood archetypes that likely preceded the historical event and are found throughout the mythologies of the world. I don't think Pitnam and Ryan really take into account the existence of mythological archetypes and their independence from history. So that is one reason to be skeptical.

    Another is the fact that the Mesopotamian Flood story in its details bears little resemblance with the specifics of the Black Sea flood. This is to be expected, if memory of the latter had faded away by the third millenium BC. The biggest difference is that the Black Flood was an inundation of a plain with terrestial water, whereas the Mesopotamian flood stories concern a deluge from water from a storm. This is an important difference because these are the two basic categories of the universal Flood myth, and there are many Flood myths throughout the world that concern an inundation of a terrestial body of water -- such as a nearby sea or waves from the ocean and so forth (the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and the implied flooding of the Vale of Siddim by the Dead Sea combines the two genres). The Mesopotamian myth has no concept of an inundation by terrestial water; the Flood is entirely caused by a storm. This is telling evidence against the view that the story derives ultimately from the Black Sea flood; instead it better recalls the local floods caused by rain that caused the rivers to overflow to such an extent that the entire region was inundated with rainwater. If there was any myth containing reminiscences of the Black Sea event that survived to the third millenium BC, it was effectively replaced by more recent events in Sumeria. And when we look at the Ziusudra and Utnapishtim stories themselves, they do fit very well with the catastrophic floods known to have occurred in Mesopotamia around 3500 BC at the end of the Ubaid period and 2900 BC, at the end of the Jemdet Nasr period. This fits very well with the placement of the Flood in the Sumerian King List in between the dynasties representing the Ubaid, Uruk, and Jemdet Nasr periods and the dynasties pertaining to the "postdiluvian" Early Dynastic period.

    I'm not saying that I know for a fact that there was no influence from the Black Sea flood, but I am quite skeptical of this and the evidence much better fits the floods that clearly did occur much closer to the time when the flood myths were written down in Mesopotamia.

  • heathen
    heathen

    I think you are forgetting that Noah had 3 sons that had wives . The bible does not clarify what color the women were . I think it's entirely possible that since they lived hundreds of years after the flood that they could have repopulated the earth with diversity . The tower of babel story does not imply that everybody was of one color but only of one lanquage. I think the new testament gives support to a global flood as well since jesus talked about destroying the entire population of unbelievers and also some other writers refered to the world being destroyed by fire just as it was destroyed by water in noahs day .

  • TD
    TD

    The kind of demographic crash we're talking about here (e.g. Reducing the human race to three couples) would create a genetic bottleneck so severe that it requires an appeal to the JW notions of "perfection" and "being closer to perfection" because 6 is just not enough people for a viable breeding group


    In this case, all of the children in the first generation would be healthy, but they would all be (paternal) first cousins. Except for a brother or a sister, there would be no one else for them to marry but a first cousin. That alone greatly elevates the chances of blindness, deafness and/or mental illness in the second generation.


    All the children in the second generation not only would have had parents that were cousins, they would all still be first counsins once removed from each other. In other words, their only choice for a marriage mate would be another first cousin once removed whose parents were also cousins. And this only addresses the paternal side.


    Ordinarily you have 2 parents, 4 grandparents and 8 great grandparents. However the third generation in this scenario only has 6 great grandparents to go around, which means that starting with this generation, these children would all also be related on the maternal side as well.


    A breeding population in this deep of a genetic rut would eventually die out.

  • ezekiel3
    ezekiel3

    TD, great point! Notice that the WTS may agree with you:

    *** it-1 p. 918 Generation ***

    The life span of the ten generations from Adam to Noah averaged more than 850 years each. (Ge 5:5-31; 9:29) But after Noah, man?s life span dropped off sharply. Abraham, for example, lived only 175 years. (Ge 25:7) Today, much as it was in the time of Moses, people living under favorable conditions may reach 70 or 80 years of age.

    Is inbreeding the cause of our shorter life span? Probably not, but it is interesting that Jewish history starts out with "normal" lifespans after the flood, while before the flood, lifespans are epic at almost 1,000 years long. Hmmm...

  • heathen
    heathen

    I don't wish to imply that the WTBTS time line is infallable simply because many of their doctrines have been proven false but in the beginning the plan was to start with 2 people and after the flood they started with 8 people . I have heard some genetic scientists state that they have found evidence of a sudden change of the genetic diversity in human beings but they figure that at one point mankind only decreased in population to a couple of thousand instead of 8 . Perhaps people are only basing the assumption that only one child was born during a 9 month period but we can't say for sure on any of that . People are known to have more than one child in a pregnancy . There are alot of unknowns .

  • Pole
    Pole

    Heathen,

    I don't wish to imply that the WTBTS time line is infallable simply because many of their doctrines have been proven false but in the beginning the plan was to start with 2 people and after the flood they started with 8 people .

    Are you saying that the Flood story was true because the Eden story was true? Whose "plan" are you talking about?

    I have heard some genetic scientists state that they have found evidence of a sudden change of the genetic diversity in human beings but they figure that at one point mankind only decreased in population to a couple of thousand instead of 8 .

    Where did you "hear" that? Besides 4 couples (assuming Noah + wife could have children) doesn't even begin to comapare to "a couple of thousand". What's your point?

    Perhaps people are only basing the assumption that only one child was born during a 9 month period but we can't say for sure on any of that . People are known to have more than one child in a pregnancy .

    And perhaps in your fuzzy assertions you are disregarding natural adult and infant death rates, wars, accidents, infertility, genetic pathology, famine, god's righteous judgements (Sodom, etc), epidemics, etc.

    Read Genesis chapter 10:1-32 and tell me what kind of birth rates we may assume just after the flood? I don't think any quintuplets are mentioned there specifically. So where did you get your assumption from? The truth is the whole Flood story is a poorly written fable. It depends heavily on naive realism - precise measurments of the ark, the exact number of years all of the male characters lived, detailed descriptions of how different animals were saved, etc. And when when we try to be consisntent andwe make an attempt to follow this line of realistic reasoning you use your final argument:

    There are alot of unknowns .

    SO effectively you are saying: "forget about your realistic simulations, because there a lot of unknowns". If we know little, how come you know more when expressing your belief in the Flood? What is it exactly that you know and we don't?

    There are a lot of unknowns therefore it is reasonable to assume that aliens control world politics. Try to prove me wrong. Start with proving there are no aliens.

  • TD
    TD

    If the Genesis genealogy is to be believed, Shem had 5 sons, Ham had 4 and Japheth had 7 and each probably had an undisclosed number of daughters.

    It really doesn't matter, because the problem here is not the size of subsequent generations, but the size of the original bottleneck.

    This is not speculation. Because we have driven so many species to the brink of extinction, we have had plenty of opportunity to study genetic stochasticity and heterozygosity loss in populations.

  • heathen
    heathen

    Pole --- obviously I was talking about Gods plan as mentioned in the bible . When you throw an all powerful being in a story like that there are unknowns that we probly couldn't even take a guess at . I do see a trend in thinking by many theologians and scientists that wants logical explanations for everything when it's pretty clear it all defies logic but requires a belief in a being that can't be seen or touched but occassionally is heard from . The time line I already mentioned may have error but that doesn't prove the story itself is all fable . Scientists have always challenged the accuracy of the bible but have been proven false many times but that doesn't stop people from believing some of what they say as fact . fact--- the bottle neck did happen, explanation---- unknown , there is not enough evidence but plenty of speculation .

  • XQsThaiPoes
    XQsThaiPoes

    The problem is genetically there has been several bottle necks in human history in various populations and the the speacis as a whole. The problem is that 8 normal people can't repopulate an entire planet unless it is just plain luck, and science does not count on luck.

    One thing nobody brought up is that if noah and his son were alive today they would be considered super human. They did not age in a any normal fashion. So a person might as well be ploting the repoduction capabilities of dinosaurs and the like. The only real problem I see is their is no known global genetic bottle neck at 2370. The only thing left is local bottlenecks and those happen all the time

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    When you throw an all powerful being in a story like that there are unknowns that we probly couldn't even take a guess at.

    Absolutely. Once you "throw" something like a god into the possibilities, you suddenly come up with an infinite range of options and everything becomes unknowable. Evidence can't be trusted because it can be so easily manipulated by an omnipotent being.

    I do see a trend in thinking by many theologians and scientists that wants logical explanations for everything

    That is in the nature of science. An illogical explanation cannot be a scientific one. This doesn't automatically apply to theology.

    when it's pretty clear it all defies logic but requires a belief in a being that can't be seen or touched but occassionally is heard from .

    The actual observed evidence requires no such thing. Obviously, for Hebrew mythology to be true would require the repeated intervention of something outside the known laws of nature.

    The time line I already mentioned may have error but that doesn't prove the story itself is all fable

    Well, when you're willing to accept the existence of a god, it is impossible to prove that the story is a fable. While there is vast and damning evidence from various fields (biology, geology, archaeology, paleontology) that the accounts are utterly false and patently absurd, there's always the possibility that they are in some way true and a mischievous super-being fabricated the contrary evidence for reasons known only to itself.

    Unfortunately this type of reasoning makes it impossible to distinguish between any claims. At most, it deserves a footnote. Perhaps scientists should present the evidence for whatever claims they are making, but mention that it's always theoretically possible that an unknown entity has manipulated reality to make things appear that way. The reason they don't is because it's pointless. It adds no useful information. If we are at the mercy of such an irksome deity, then we can never really know anything. Science has survived and prospered by assuming that the observable evidence corresponds with what actually happened.

    Scientists have always challenged the accuracy of the bible but have been proven false many times but that doesn't stop people from believing some of what they say as fact

    Some examples, please. Anyway, how can anything be "proven false" by your standards?

    fact--- the bottle neck did happen, explanation---- unknown , there is not enough evidence but plenty of speculation .

    But not a bottleneck of 8 people 4,000 years ago. It either didn't happen or God altered human DNA to make it look like it never happened.

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