144,000 - LITERAL or SYMBOLIC?

stevieb1

Well the Topic Subject says it all. I'd love to have your input on this question.

As many may be aware The Watchtower of September 1, 2004, pp.30-31 dealt with this question. Here is there answer in full. See what you think.

Why do Jehovah?s Witnesses take the number 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelation literally and not symbolically?

The apostle john wrote: ?I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand.? (Revelation 7:4) In the Bible, the phrase ?those who were sealed? refers to a group of individuals who are chosen from among mankind to rule with Christ in heaven over the coming Paradise earth. (2 Corinthians 1:21,22; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6) Their number, 144,000 is understood literally for several reasons. One is found in the immediate context of Revelation 7:4.

After the apostle John was told in vision about this group of 144,000 individuals, he was shown another group. John describes this second group as ?a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.? This great crowd refers to those who will survive the coming ?great tribulation,? which will destroy the present wicked world. ? Revelation 7:9, 14.

Note, however, the contrast that john draws between verses 4 and 9 of Revelation chapter 7. He states that the first group, ?those who were sealed,? has a definite number. However, the second group, ? a great crowd,? is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between the two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally.

Various Bible scholars, past and present, reached the same conclusion ? that is, the number is literal. For instance, in commenting on Revelation 7:4, 9, British lexicographer Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger observed some 100 years ago: ?It is the simplest statement of fact: a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number in this very chapter.? (The Apocalypse or ?The Day of the Lord,? page 282) More recently, Robert L. Thomas, Jr., professor of New Testament at The Master?s Seminary in the United States, wrote: ?The case for symbolism is exegetically weak.? He added: ?It is a definite number [at 7:4] in contrast with the indefinite number at 7:9. If it is taken symbolically, no number in the book can be taken literally.? ? Revelation: An Exegetical Commentary, Volume 1, page 474.

Some argue that since Revelation contains highly symbolic language, all numbers found in this book, including the number 144,000 must be symbolic. (Revelation 1:1, 4; 2:10) That conclusion, though, is clearly not correct. Granted, Revelation contains numerous symbolic numbers, but it also includes literal numbers. For instance, john speaks of the ?twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.? (Revelation 21:14) Clearly, the number 12 mentioned in this verse is literal, not symbolic. Further, this verse is literal, not symbolic. Further, the apostle John writes about ?the thousand years? of Christ?s reign. That number is also to be taken literally, as a careful consideration of the Bible shows. (Revelation 20:3, 5-7) Hence, whether a number in Revelation is to be taken literally or symbolically depends on its background and setting.

The conclusion that the number 144,000 is literal and refers to a limited number of individuals, a relatively small group when compared with the ?great crowd,? also harmonizes with other Bible passages. For instance, later in the vision that the apostle John receives, the 144,000 are described as those who ?were bought from among mankind as firstfruits.? (Revelation 14:1, 4) The expression ?firstfruits? refers to s small representative selection. Also, while Jesus was on earth, he spoke about those who will rule with him in his heavenly Kingdom and called them a ?little flock.? (Luke 12:32; 22:29) Indeed, those from among mankind who will rule in heaven are few in comparison with those of mankind who will inhabit the coming Paradise earth.

Hence, the context of Revelation 7:4 and related statements found elsewhere in the Bible bear out that the number 144,000 is to be taken literally. It refers to those who will rule in heaven with Christ over a paradise earth, which will be filled with a large and undetermined number of happy people who worship Jehovah God. ? Psalm 37:29.

Farkel

: 144,000 - LITERAL or SYMBOLIC?

Neither. Hallucinations can't be either.

Farkel

BeelzeDub

Follow up question.

If 144,000 is to be understood as literal, then in Rev 14:4 where it says: "These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins."

Should that not be literal also? All of those claiming to be of the 144,000 that I ever met, were NOT virgins. Well maybe Fred Franz might have been.

Evesapple

It could be literal....and if it is, then I do not believe that it is all JW's that are chosen...their other more noteworthy individuals here on earth and that have passed.....Ghandi....Mother Theresa....Nelson Mandelo....and the list can go on....their efforts and works were not for nothing...I believe their is something great in store for people like that.

BluesBrother

Their number, 144,000 is understood literally for several reasons. One is found in the immediate context of Revelation 7:4.

Ok, Vs 1 symbolic: Vs2 symbolic ; Vs 3 symbolic : Vs4 Literal? partially because they do not come from the 12 tribes of Israel, : Vs 5 through 8 symbolic. What does the context suggest?

Interestingly,How many people are known to have received this calling ? There are no published statistics for the total of individual members in the twentieth/twentyfirst century.

Interestingly, in 1925 there were 90,434 partakers of the emblems according to the Watchtower 1961,page 721. However that number may include casual visitors to the Memorial since it does seem out of proportion . I believe a more realistic figure would be the 52,465 who partook in 1935, out of 56000 odd publishers.

There were 8730 who partook in year 2000. In the years between the 1870s and 1935 we do not have a figure for those who partook and died, and of course there are those who partook and died between 1935 and the present day.

A realistic estimate of the total number of the remnant of the present day must be in the region of at least 70.000 plus the trickle of numbers that has "always been there during the last two thousand years"

This leaves just 74,000 places that could be taken in the first century. The apostasy that followed the death of the apostles did not take over immediately , the Watchtower of 1989,15/11 spoke favourably of Polycarp who was martyred in 155 c.e..Therefore it would seem reasonable to allow for 100 years of genuine Christianity . They lacked the printing press but had the galvanising influence of the Holy Spirit and miraculous gifts. Is it reasonable to expect that they would expand at no lesser rate than the modern organisation? Please note the kick start of 3000 at Pentecost of 33 c.e. in one day , and a further 5000 soon after.

By comparisom the modern organisation grew from it?s start in the 1870?s to 580,000 publishers within 80 years ,by 1950. That is more than seven times the amount required to provide the 74000 permissible number and that for a first century organisation that spanned at least from Babylon in the East to Spain in the West and included North Africa.

The above figures may seem complicated but are enough to make one question whether a number of 144,000 would not have been completed long ago?

BeelzeDub

Here is a thread Runningman wrote several years ago, statisticly showing that the majority of the 144,000 still alive today are bogus.

Numbers don't lie folks, Insurance comanies make their fortunes off these numbers and are based on factual mortality rates.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/15981/1.ashx

The numbers today are probably closer to 90% bogus, would love to see an update to this.

metatron

Go to a good college library and read a copy of the reference work they quote as written by Robert Thomas.

He makes clear that the 144,000 MUST be a group of literal Jews - not 'spiritual Israel' - for much the same reason

as the number being literal - a strong contrast is being made in the verses between all nations and Israel. Any symbolic

nation of Israel would be made up of mostly Gentiles so the contrast wouldn't fit.

Of course, the Watchtower won't tell you this - and isn't going to quote from the same book cited when it disagrees

with their notions AND USES THE SAME LOGIC ABOUT A CONTRAST!

metatron

ColdRedRain

Various Bible scholars, past and present, reached the same conclusion ? that is, the number is literal. .

Bandwagon logic strikes again.

Nosferatu

John should've stayed away from those pretty mushrooms he found in the desert.

cyberguy

metatron, you hit the nail right on the head!

Take a look at this link http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=15

then look for the section entitled "Literal Babylon" and read some quotes from Robert Thomas. He's quoted as supporting the notion that literal Babylon is meant! Evidently, he believes that much of Revelation is literal, not symbolic. He evidently doesn't agree with the opening words of Revelation, "And he sent forth his angle and presented it in signs" (Rev. 1:1).

144,000 - LITERAL or SYMBOLIC?

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