Social awareness is invaluable for any social animal. Animals appear to show shame and guilt when exposed for doing something understood as forbidden. Our minds evolved with programs to worrry about our image (attractive, valuable, dominance etc) as well as a sense of indebtedness to the clan. These programs are always active but at times get suppressed under the weight of self gratification of primary needs like sex or food etc. It is when we become aware of the conflict within our minds that we feel conflicted or guilty.
The concept of sin?
by El blanko 22 Replies latest watchtower bible
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El blanko
LT:
Hehe - no worries man. I don't think you are being harsh at all, it's just this form of communication sometimes. I'm a pussycat in real life, although my words here make me sound like a right toffy-nosed twit at times.
Yin/Yang is interesting. The white is the male, the dark is the female(!!). Those pesky women again portrayed as dark energy... hehe. With a wee dot of each colour in the other.
FlyingHigh:
Thanks - I'll bare that in mind - well, try It's the bane of my life - I really do not need other enemies, I do a good job on myself.
MyAuntFanny:
I have problems with the idea of salvation through works OR grace because I can't see how any amount of forgiveness can erase our acts or relieve us of either guilt or payment (in the sense of restoring the balance). Which is sort of what Sirona said.
Grace is supposed to reach further than our works (I think). My Oxford dictionary partially reveals grace as "the unmerited favour of God" and to the Christian that is one key to the inner-workings of the faith.
God is supposed to recognize that we imperfect ones can by no means gain life through our own works and therefore God deems us fit through faith in Christ to gain life eternal and applies his grace to those focused upon the son.
So a JW for instance cannot achieve God's grace through 60 hours marked on a slip of paper
At least that is how I see the Christian faith. I do not really understand another version anymore.
Peaceful Pete:
Social awareness is invaluable for any social animal. Animals appear to show shame and guilt when exposed for doing something understood as forbidden. Our minds evolved with programs to worrry about our image (attractive, valuable, dominance etc) as well as a sense of indebtedness to the clan. These programs are always active but at times get suppressed under the weight of self gratification of primary needs like sex or food etc. It is when we become aware of the conflict within our minds that we feel conflicted or guilty.
That's interesting. I assume you take the evolution route then? I had to read that twice to get the gist of where you are coming from and understand now.
If we take evolution on face value, I assume that excessive guilt may be viewed as a faulty mechanism then and the concept of sin, simply man's way of not taking full responsibility for his actions?
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Terry
Cause and effect are abundant in everything.
Things act according to their nature.
Actions are the effect of the natural.
The conflict that comes between our nature and our will to do otherwise is indicative of the bizarre and chaotic inherent in nature.
Life is chaotic as is the universe.
Consciousness in man recognizes theoretically possible "improvements" in the chaos.
Mans emotional longing for those improvements (also part of his nature) require him to impute those possibilities as an actual alternative.
By elevating a potential (an improved and non-chaotic universe) to the status of an ACTUAL, man assigns a cause: God.
Only by creating a creator of man's most desired alternative to actual chaos, is man able to participate in his own rescue.
By imagining that this rescue vastly improves his chances to transcend the reality of chaos (eventual death) man invests every effort of will into wishfully thinking it into existence.
Once man splits his awareness into this reality (is chaos) vs supra-reality (is god) he seals off the one from the other. (Cognative dissonance).
From that partitioning forward man reacts to his inability to live in this projected (improved) rescue scenario by punishing his rational side with guilt and fear and pain and appeasement.
The moral of the story? Man fools himself to better himself.
The benefit? By imputing a prize of great magnitude to his extra efforts there is a reasonable amount of social betterment counterbalanced by mental illness and social decay.
Cause and effect triumph after all.
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XQsThaiPoes
Where did the "weight" come from, that the Egyptians feared would ultimately be heavier than a feather?
You talking about the godess maat, the goddess of truth that would weight you deeds against her feather to figure out where your ka would go. BTW if anyone sees her upon your death, and you ended up in a plane with a backwards headed man that's the bad place. So start flying (you'll be a bird with human head) because it gets worse from there.
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El blanko
Terry, that sounds plausible - but what if God actually does exist? LOL ! - he may not like your attempt to rationalize his existence.
By imagining that this rescue vastly improves his chances to transcend the reality of chaos (eventual death) man invests every effort of will into wishfully thinking it into existence.
Yep, makes sense.
Although, I still feel there is a 'supreme' intelligence out there - can't help it man - if it's a drug, I need it.
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Utopian Reformist
I feel that greatest sin of all has been committed by whoever or whatever is responsible for all existence. If an intelligent being, or living intelligence or consciousness does exist and is aware of our state, then from my human vantage point, based on my human experience, that intelligence is the greatest sinner of all.
How could any intelligent entity sit idly by watching humans struggle with questions of origin, the future, death, life and beyond and never make a verifiable physical attempt and actually communicate with life on this planet? I could not have children wondering about my existence, my name, my whereabouts, my origins or history and then expect rational obedient productive behavior all of the time.
That's why religion is absurd.
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bebu
How could any intelligent entity sit idly by watching humans struggle with questions of origin, the future, death, life and beyond and never make a verifiable physical attempt and actually communicate with life on this planet?
Of course, there's always the claim that He has.
But aside from that... how would everyone just getting "The Answers" make us all want to obey them if they were given? I do not think they would really help to the extent you think. Instead, I think we are actually already in process of answering larger questions like: What things do we choose--individually--in a world where God seems to not protect us from our (and others') choices (esp. sins)? Everyone suffers on this earth, but not all become filled with hatred or bitterness. Suffering has "bettered" many people.
I could not have children wondering about my existence, my name, my whereabouts, my origins or history and then expect rational obedient productive behavior all of the time.
I agree!! But God knows the difference in the hearts of those who love goodness, and those who will not. The Bible says that love covers a multitude of sins... so I think even God is willing to cover a multitude of mistakes and sins due to ignorance. I think that He is willing to forgive sins done out of anger or hatred, in fact. Maybe the only kind of sin that can't be forgiven then is an unrepentant arrogance?
Anyway... Back to EB... I think evil is easier to see in some forms than others. Eg: Were those Chechen terrorists evil, or sinning? I think so, strongly! But they were also very likely loving fathers, and had great faith and loyalty in other areas of life, so they were not 100% evil in every aspect of life, perhaps. They were certain that they were not sinning, but some people who believe certain things to be quite sinful, and continue to do those things, even though no murder is involved. Who can sort it out? Who can trace it all out? Is it essential?
I recommend humility. I've noticed God often shows up.
bebu
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peacefulpete
Of course, there's always the claim that He has.
That is why he said "verifiable communication". I can claim and even believe anything.
Suffering has "bettered" many people
Please beat me with an appliance cord, lock me in a closet, burn my hands on the stove, I want to be a better preson. Suffering NEVER betters a person! It demoralizes,cripples,and embitters. Education and experience improves our understanding of the world and our place in it, that natuarally involves a measure of disappointment, but emotional and physical harm have no place in legitimate educating.
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bebu
Sure, people can believe or claim whatever they like. You may claim there is no God due to lack of empirical evidence.. but God must surely have better access to us than just our 5 senses. There's the shared reality, and the private one. I think there's enough in both to confirm that communication with God has/does happen in all people worldwide--Christian and non-Christian alike. Where it goes is an individual affair
Suffering NEVER betters a person! It demoralizes,cripples,and embitters.
An emotional statement... but I still stand by my statement about suffering, though I consider it necessary to work to remove suffering. The same boiling water hardens eggs, but softens spaghetti. I doubt you would listen, but here is a link to a video of the late Pastor Richard Wurmbrand who suffered in Romanian prisons for 14 years under communism. The bottom of this page, second to the last file, is called, "Tortured for Christ". (Black/white, filmed in late 1960s, a little harsh on the lighting.) Fast forward to the time 21:06 after it gets downloaded, and hear him for only about 2 minutes. Or start around 15:30 if you still have time, and go to about 23:30. Does everyone who suffers become crippled, demoralized, and embittered? NO.
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=50
bebu
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El blanko
Thanks for your thoughts Bebu.