Questions on Adam & Eve?

by kls 48 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • seven006
    seven006

    ***do you really feel it's leaders are solely intrested in controlling their people, or do not many leaders have good intentions with no intrest in controlling others and truely feel they are doing gods will? ***

    Gumball,

    Why can't the religious leader do good and have helpful intentions toward his fellow man without having to join a god team? Why can't he simply help in his own name with no financial or spiritual compensation instead of the name of some mythical god product? Because there is no money in it or people will not identify a person's intentions as good without the proper label being sewn on his shirt?

    I don't feel any religious theory is as black and white as the fundamentalist believer would like it to be. I think religion is a bastardization of many things such as ancient myth, tradition, government, social psychology, philosophy, right down to proper toilet training. It is all rolled up into a scripted concept of proper behavior based on specific mixture of religious myth and culture. The concepts are then subdivided and labeled as various religions and a persons belief in said religion is dependent on ones geographical place of birth, upbringing, and social majority. Then the religious theory is mixed with cultural tradition and the actions and reactions of those encompassed in it's boundaries do and think what they do and think. Some who move up the social ladder and become religious leaders may in fact do it out of the goodness and caring aspects of their personality. Others do it out of the position their social climbing gives them as an authority figure and then mold it into something that personally benefits themselves.

    Whether a religious leader now, does it for the good of others, or for personal gain, it is all still based on a social misconception of myth and handed down in a neatly packaged belief system. That original manipulation of myth was used to control the minds and actions of others whether for bad or good. Do as the writers of the myth say, or you will be punished or rewarded. Good or bad aspects of the writings that came from the myth are unimportant, the ability to control others minds and actions based on those myths is what I have problems with. It hard for a person to become a leader with aspirations of helping others as a personal good will exercise without having to join a religiously labeled team that gives the recipient of his kindness a label to associate the persons reasons for helping to.

    It seems that the existence of mankind has had religion as a moral compass for so long that it is almost impossible to recognize things such as basic human kindness, socially acceptable behavior, or love and understanding as coming from anything but their mixed up and shuffled theology.

    To me (and this is just my opinion) that is wrong. A person does not need an easily identifiable label such as religion, to anchor his reason for being a decent, intelligent, and caring human being on. The more we look for alternative reasons for our thoughts and actions, the more we become dependent on the full calendar of it's philosophy. That restricts open minded thinking and growth of personal intelligence and unbiased kindness. Religion is not open to individual interpretation to barrow and pull from other religions and make up your own mind for mutual benefit, because there is no money in that. But, in fact, religions of today have been developed in just that manner, borrowing and pulling from each other. The problem came about when they all claimed the borrowed myths and theories are exclusive and created specifically to and by them. History that has been written and is still being written today has shown the power and destruction in the actions of those who believe their specific brand of religious myth.

    It seems virtually impossible to separate the good aspects of mythical writings from the bad. Some try but it is hard to ignore the genocidal mentality of it's gods and acceptance of their old ways and simply keep the puppy dog warm fuzzies of today's interpretations. It all comes from the same pile of shit. Some shit can be used to fertilize a garden while other parts of shit can give you a staff infection. Personally I use dried leaves and grass for fertilizer, I can't stand the smell of bullshit no matter how good it is supposed to be for my garden.

    Dave

  • MerryMagdalene
    MerryMagdalene

    not sure if this on or off topic, but it is about Adam & Eve...quotes from the old Life Everlasting book that seemed a little warped to me (but maybe that's just me):

    Before God created anything new, a woman, God left the man free to determine whether there was a suitable companion for him among all the lower animals....But the perfect man, created in God's image and according to God's likeness, was not inclined to bestiality. He merely acquainted himself, unafraid, with them and named them, but found among them no suitable companion for himself....After the man fully exercised his freedom to reject any of the lower creatures as a companion and helper for him, God acted. "...And Jehovah God proceeded to build the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman and to bring her to the man...."

    A more interesting point, however, at least to me, was this:

    The serpent presented itself as a liberator from fear. It led the woman to feel a need of freedom from the fear of death, a death that God was holding over her head.

    Now there's a fear with which we're all well acquainted!

    But I tend to think it's all pretty whacked and not worth taking too seriously.

  • kls
    kls

    Ya that sounds pretty whacked . Geeze

  • gumby
    gumby

    Dave, ya damn windbag! Good synopsis of truths but I still wonder something.

    Many who are believers go through life with a smile on their face with a hope ahead of them. Many are transformed to be a better person, and many go to their grave happier than those with no hope....so here's the deal. If none of what they believe is actually true, yet they benifit from their belief for the better than before they were a believer, and much effort and money is put into their faith, is it a bad thing?

    Yea we're way the hell off topic, but, but

    Gumby

  • kls
    kls

    Good question Gumby,,,,,,,,and the answer is,,,,

  • seven006
    seven006

    Well, professor Gumball, even though I come off as an evil anti Christ type person, I hold to one of my main conclusions on the whole god question and that is; what ever wakes you up in the morning and puts a smile on your face and doesn't hurt anyone else, more power to ya.

    Personally I think people with partial lobotomies are the happiest little human creature roaming the planet. The less you are able to comprehend about the world around you, the less ability you have to worry about it. I would go into it deeper but the two part special on Nova (Origins) is on TV. It's about the origin of our solar system and life on earth. It's a good one and very much an anti Christ type show. Stupid scientist anyway, what the hell do they know.

    Dave

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Merry

    the perfect man, created in God's image and according to God's likeness, was not inclined to bestiality.

    The way the wt portrays this, it is as if it would have been ok (not a sin) w god if adam had started doing the sheep. God could have started resting a bit earlier. One man w nothing but endless time on his hands on a planet full of pliant, friendly animals. Whatever. The whole thing sounds absurd.

    S

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I wrote a long post on this subject: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/73244/1.ashx

    I believe the Garden of Eden story, at least at one level, is a Yahwistic polemic against Asherah worship. Asherah was the creatress of the gods, wife of El and/or Yahweh (depending on whether El was distinguished from Yahweh or not), and was believed to be the source of life and healing. One Canaanite healing spell invokes Asherah and the serpentine god Horon, and their healing of the patient is described poetically as molding him from clay, breathing into him the breath of life, and clothing him with a garment (KTU 1.169). Now, does that sound familiar? How about the fact that one of the names of Asherah in nearby Phoenicia was Chawat, and this is the exact equivalent of the name "Eve", and the name means "serpent (lady)" in Northwest Semitic? How about the fact that another healing spell had the god Horon finding an antidote to snake venom in the Tree of Death that grew alongside the Tigris River (KTU 1.100)? How about also that Asherah was also iconographically represented as the Tree of Life in Canaanite and Israelite art (such as the Tanaach Cult Stand, or in the Lachich Ewer -- where the Tree of Life curiously looks just like a menorah) and devotees worshipped her with sacred trees or stylized poles. There are many links with the Eden story and Asherah.

    More specifically, the Temple was believed to be a terrestial representation of the heavenly Garden (cf. Ezekiel 28:13-14; Psalm 2:6-8; 24:1-8; 46:4; 92:12-14; cf. also the Temple cherubim at the eastern entrance in 1 Kings 6:23-25; 8:6 and Gihon at the Temple Mount in 2 Chronicles 32:30) and before Hezekiah ascended the throne, there was indeed a Tree of Life and serpent in the Temple: the Asherah pole and the bronze serpent called Nehushtan that was believed to have healing powers (2 Kings 18:4). Hezekiah destroyed the Asherah poles and Nehushtan, but Manasseh (687-644 BC) "placed the carved image of the Asherah which he had made in the Temple" (2 Kings 21:7), thus reversing Hezekiah's reforms. Then during the reforms of Josiah (640-609 BC), Hilkiah and the priests "removed all the cult objects that had been made for Baal, Asherah, and the whole array of heaven; he burnt them outside Jerusalem in the fields of the Kidron....From the Temple of Yahweh he removed the sacred pole right out of Jerusalem to the wadi Kidron, and in the wadi Kidron he burnt it, reducing it to ashes and threw its ashes on the common burying-ground" (2 Kings 23:4, 6). So for several generations, there was a protracted struggle between the prophets and Yahwists against the traditionalists who wanted an iconic representation of Asherah (and her serpent) in the Temple. Most interestingly, concerning Eve's nakedness, 2 Kings 23:7 notes that "inside the Temple of Yahweh" the female devotees "wove clothes for Asherah". This is reminiscent of the man healed by Horon and Asherah in the Canaanite healing spell who is clothed by the god who "puts a garment ('rm) on you" (KTU 1.169 1-20) -- just as Yahweh made clothes for Adam and Eve in v. 21. The word for "garment" in this text ('rm) is also the same word used in Genesis to refer to Eve's nakedness. Asherah's worshippers clothed her with garments; cf. also: "You have taken your embroidered clothes and put them on the images" (Ezekiel 16:16). To this day, in Syria, Israel, and elsewhere in the Middle East, people place clothes on sacred trees to be healed from various illnesses. The clothes are thought to transfer the illness to the healing tree, which also acquires life-giving curative powers from the tree. There is one additional fact about the devotion of sacred trees which is also strikingly similar to the Eden narrative in Genesis. According to the article quoted in my post on the subject: "The consumption of fruit taken from sacred trees is strictly forbidden and people who dare to pick it will be severely punished".

    The Eden story thus has all the ingredients of the Asherah cult. The story is certainly derived from an older Canaanite myth; one possibility suggested by scholars is that it concerned how the ophidian chthonic god Mot, the god of Death, tricked Asherah or the first man into giving himself and his fellow chthonics (such as Horon) an endless food supply in Sheol -- for the chthonics feast on the souls of those who descend to the underworld in Canaanite myth. It would thus be an etiological myth about the origin of death in the world. But its Yahwistic adaptation in Genesis would twist the story into an anti-Asherah polemic, dramatizing the historical expulsion of Asherah (= Eve) from the Temple and parodying the cultic practice of dressing Asherah with clothes.

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    That post Leolaia was rivetting. I love this sort of historical info and am always rewarded by taking the time to read through them.

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