arguing with a dub....or....how I learned to be apostate and love it

by undercover 12 Replies latest jw experiences

  • undercover
    undercover

    Recently, a JW relative tried to discuss my "spiritual well-being" with me.

    I have had conversations in the past with this same relative concerning 607 vs 586/587 and 1914. No matter what I said, it went in one ear and out the other. It was like talking to a brick wall. I realized I was wasting my breath and time, so I avoided "spiritual" discussions with this relative after a while.

    In these discussions I usually tried to be non-agressive and non-threatening in my responses or my points, so as to not to get labeled "trouble maker" or even "apostate". I tried to just raise questions and doubts without committing to any one viewpoint or personal belief.

    Well, recently this relative cornered me and started in again on my not attending meetings and questioning the F&DS. Instead of trying to counter argue every thing they said, I let them ramble on. I waited until their foot was firmly planted in their mouth and for them to take a breath. This time I decided to just come out and say what I was thinking instead of playing pyscho-babble bullshit games.

    It was a fairly lengthy discussion, with them doing most of the talking until they got tired, but when I spoke, it was to the point, it rattled them and left them without a word to say.

    They kept talking about the "organization" and how Jehovah has "always" had an earthly organization. I asked what organization did Adam belong to? What organization did Job belong to? What was the organization in 200AD? What was the organization in 1699? What organization did Russell belong to before creating the WTS? Speaking of Russell, Russell taught that Jesus returned in 1874 and that Armageddon was to come in 1914. It didn't happen, so the date changed. It didn't happen again and he died. Also while speaking of Russell, the man was a crackpot. Go back and read the early Watchtowers. The man was loopy. He measured pyramids and claimed that they were modern prophets. Where the hell did he get that? Divine inspiration? He died and another nice'un took over(against the will of the man who started it all). He set a new date and promised resurrection of people long dead. He was wrong. He changed the date of Jesus return from 1874 to 1914. Had to keep that 1914 date in there somehow.
    So what is truth? 1874? 1914? 1975? Truth cannot change. If you claim that something is truth and then either change it or it is proved wrong, then truth was a lie. Truth cannot be one thing today and something else next week.
    This "organization" has constantly revised doctrine and dates for Armaggedon. Every one of them for over one hundred years has been proved wrong. (At this point, they tried to argue that the WTS never said Armaggedon was coming in 75) Oh yes they did. They might not have said in these words, "Armaggedon is coming in 1975" but they alluded to it, they created a sense of urgency and they convinced us that it was so close that education, housing and medical situations were not important. But yet 1975 wasn't even an important year in anything. Nothing happened then, or later. But yet they kept that sense of urgency because the people alive in 1914 would see Armaggedon. Wrong again. That generation is gone. So, the WTS changes doctrine once again. This religion has preyed on the fears of people and none of their "prophecies" have come true. (Again they tried to argue that the org is not a prophet). Oh but you need to read your Watchtowers. They most certainly have claimed to be prophets. But they were wrong. They have false prophecied.
    So you want me to put faith in a religion that has been proven wrong time and time again over and over? You want me to believe that this group of doomsayers started by a whacked pyramid measurer is God's prophet? Forget it.

    They just stood there, dumbfounded and speechless. It was priceless.

    But I know that this person will probably report back to the elders, so I can expect a phone call sometime soon, I'm thinking.

  • Bubbamar
    Bubbamar

    OMG - what a beautiful summary of all the insanity!! I love it!! I wish you could have had a hidden camera!

    It will never cease to amaze me that a person can listen to all that and still walk away with their belief denial system operating at full speed.

    Congrats to you for speaking your mind (and the truth!)

    I guess the good thing about this person reporting you is that they will have to repeat what you said which will serve to reinforce it in their mind and will also expose another person to the truth!! So sorry you may be labled an evil apostate now.

  • undercover
    undercover
    It will never cease to amaze me that a person can listen to all that and still walk away with their belief denial system operating at full speed.

    I wish I could say that, but I used to be that same person. I could stand at a door and argue about the WTS doctrine all day with someone and as soon as I got back in the car, I'd say, "How can they not see what I just showed them?" And they close the door and say, "How can these people be so self-deluded?"

    Even though I left my dub relative speechless, they'll deny that they got stumped and pat themselves on the shoulder for their good deed. But, I too have been in his shoes and reacted just as he will. I can see why it happens because I have done it myself.

    That's why I tend to accept the notion that the WTS and JWs are a cult. They use mind-control techniques to keep their members in self denial and self-deluded into believing that they alone have some kind of special connection with God and his "organization" and that nothing anyone else has to say can influence them to think otherwise.

  • Quotes
    Quotes

    PLEASE TELL ME YOU GOT THIS ON TAPE!!!!!

    Good work!

    ~Quotes, of the "Facts are more damning than lies" class

  • franklin J
    franklin J

    I no longer waste my time with them; I simply say I am not interested and close the door. Any reletives who are still JWs ignore me anyway.

    At a recent funeral of a reletive ( the JW side) I was at the gravesite and my pompous elder cousin was saying the usual ressurection speech.

    He very pretentiously said " some of us at this gravesite will see you again in the new order Jehovah will provide". It was clearly meant to embarass me for DARING to attend this JW funeral. I just ignored his pompousity and carried on.

    They are clearly " under the influence" . Svengali, not liquor.

  • johnny cip
    johnny cip

    undercover; you put them in thier place and they will not forget it . they can't deal with facts. if i was you i would call them and press them some more. now that you got the upper hand. after they run out of thier little speeches, they are dead in the water. jw's find very few people that can refute them. thats why at every chance i lay it on thick. it's so easy to make a jw fume. great work john

  • Gill
    Gill

    Love your story. I'm going to copy it and memorise it as I always get stumped when starting on this topic.

    Good work. Something may have got through.

  • Winston Smith :>D
    Winston Smith :>D

    Nice job under! Well put.

    I wonder, did you consciously make the decision to show your hand to this relative knowing the consequences?

    No doubt your viewpoints will reported to the SS by the brownshirts

    Good luck!

  • ko38
    ko38

    Undercover you are a steely eyed missile pilot.(I think that was from apollo 13 the movie)

    Way to go.I just hung up the phone with my mother.We had a similar conversation.I dont know how to reach her,she is so much under the control of men.

    Preaching the truth about the troof is a very difficult and futile thing in most cases.

    I am a logic based person.You know "just the facts mam"but i see the facts are'nt able to persuade someone who is brainwashed.

    Man this is so frustrating.How in the world i got out I do not know. keep it up ko38

  • vitty
    vitty

    I remember my husband having a discussion with non witness family member. She held up her hands and said "I give up you have all the answers" Boy were we smug until I read that this was a classic cult symptom, They say you have simple solutions for very complex questions.

    Not smug anymore

    Infact we feel really embarrist that one day well have to confess, we were WRONG

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit