by bebu 28 Replies latest jw friends
She told me she would bring a book she simply calls "JP"--something about proclaiming?--which would give the history of the WT.
Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of Gods Kingdom. It is very objective and truthful, according to its publishers that is! LOL
Tell her that you're more interested in looking at publications from the Rutherford era. Those are probably the most embarrassing.
Dan, part of our conversation revolved around people being unaware of what their origins were. So, in discussing all of these things together, one of my hopes is to create the opportunity for them to see the relevence of looking at older publications. And if I go ahead of they and "find" stuff and ask them about it, I hope they'll be motivated by me somehow to research more.
The writings of Rutherford are a mind-boggling place to start, I agree.
bebu
bebu....
I'll pm you my notes and quotes from the Proclaimers book
Proclaimers
Thanks, shotgun!
bebu
Also the book Captives of a Concept presents some pretty good ways of using the "Proclaimers" book to cast some very serious doubts about Jesus selecting the WTS as the "faithful slave" back in 1919. The fact that she mentioned that book gives you a great way of leading into that.
Thanks, MJ. I'll see about ordering it.
Shotgun, THANK YOU for your notes. I appreciate not having to study a 600+ page book for the good points you brought out.
bebu
Bebu - good for you! I have a knack for "playing dumb" in situations where I want people to open up. I ask LOTS of questions as if I don't know any better...but in reality, I'm steering the conversation to bring them to a point of where they question themselves. Years of learning this as a child in the Theocratic Ministry School, has actually proved beneficial in other areas of my life. I'm just waiting for the right opportunity to use it when a JW visits my doorstep. Or even when (if?) I get the opportunity to UN-witness to my parents.
Just a few notes
*** jv chap. 6 pp. 69-70 A Time of Testing (1914-1918) ***
To expose this clergy-inspired pressure, on March 15, 1918, the Watch Tower Society released the tract Kingdom News No. 1. Its message? The six-column-wide headline read: Religious IntolerancePastor Russells Followers Persecuted Because They Tell the People the Truth(Notice they called themselves Russells followers not Gods) *** jv chap. 11 pp. 156-157 How We Came to Be Known as Jehovahs Witnesses ***
Accepting the Responsibility
What an honor it is to bear the name of the only true God, the Sovereign of the universe! But with that name goes responsibility. It is a responsibility that other religious groups do not want. As Brother Rutherford said in his discourse Happy are they that can take a name that nobody under the sun wants except those who are wholly and unreservedly devoted to Jehovah. Yet, how fitting it is that Jehovahs servants bear Gods personal name, that they make it known, and that it be prominently associated with the proclamation of his purpose!
Any group or individuals that speak in the name of Jehovah put themselves under obligation to convey his word truthfully. (Jer. 23:26-28)
*** jv chap. 13 p. 178 Recognized by Our Conduct ***
How Far Does the Requirement of Honesty Reach?
Jehovahs Witnesses recognize that honesty is required in everything they do. As the basis for their view, they point to such scriptures as the following: Jehovah himself is the God of truth (Ps. 31:5) On the other hand, as Jesus said, the Devil is the father of the lie (John 8:44) Understandably, then, among the things that Jehovah hates is a false tongue (Prov. 6:16, 17) His Word tells us How that you have put away falsehood, speak truth (Eph. 4:25) And not only must Christians speak truth but, like the apostle Paul, they need to conduct themselves honestly in all things (Heb. 13:18) There are no areas of life where Jehovahs Witnesses can legitimately apply some other set of values.
Noteworthy too is what Brother Russell did with other highly significant truths that he learned from Gods Word. He discerned that Christ would return as a glorious spirit person, invisible to human eyes. As early as 1876, he recognized that the year 1914 would mark the end of the Gentile Times. (Luke 21:24, KJ) Other Bible scholars had likewise perceived some of these things and had advocated them. But Brother Russell used all his resources to give them international publicity on a scale then unequaled by any other individual or group.
He urged others to check his writings carefully against Gods inspired Word so that they would be satisfied that what they were learning was in full harmony with it. To one who wrote a letter of inquiry, Brother Russell replied If it was proper for the early Christians to prove what they received from the apostles, who were and who claimed to be inspired, how much more important it is that you fully satisfy yourself that these teachings keep closely within their outline instructions and those of our Lord since their author claims no inspiration, but merely the guidance of the Lord, as one used of him in feeding his flock.
*** jv chap. 28 p. 626 Testing and Sifting From Within ***
Many who were sifted out at that time clung to the view that a single individual, Charles Taze Russell, was the faithful and wise servant foretold by Jesus at Matthew 24:45-47 (KJ), which servant would distribute spiritual food to the household of faith. Particularly following his death, The Watch Tower itself set forth this view for a number of years.(Thats why many clung to the idea you idiots) In view of the prominent role that Brother Russell had played, it appeared to the Bible Students of that time that this was the case. He did not personally promote the idea, but he did acknowledge the apparent reasonableness of the arguments of those who favored it
*** jv chap. 28 p. 632 Testing and Sifting From Within ***
Based on the premise that events of the first century might find parallels in related events later, they also concluded that if Jesus baptism and anointing in the autumn of 29 C.E. paralleled the beginning of an invisible presence in 1874, then his riding into Jerusalem as King in the spring of 33 C.E. would point to the spring of 1878 as the time when he would assume his power as heavenly King. They also thought they would be given their heavenly reward at that time. When that did not occur, they concluded that since Jesus anointed followers were to share with him in the Kingdom, the resurrection to spirit life of those already sleeping in death began then. It was also reasoned that the end of Gods special favor to natural Israel down to 36 C.E. might point to 1881 as the time when the special opportunity to become part of spiritual Israel would close.
*** jv chap. 28 p. 632 Testing and Sifting From Within ***
In the lecture Millions Now Living Will Never Diedelivered by J. F. Rutherford on March 21, 1920, at the Hippodrome in New York City, attention was directed to the year 1925. On what basis was it thought to be significant? In a booklet published in that same year, 1920, it was pointed out that if 70 full Jubilees were calculated from what was understood to be the date when Israel entered the Promised Land (instead of starting after the last typical Jubilee before the Babylonian exile and then counting to the beginning of the Jubilee year at the end of the 50th cycle), this could point to the year 1925. On the basis of what was said there, many hoped that perhaps the remaining ones of the little flock would receive their heavenly reward by 1925. This year also was associated with expectations for resurrection of faithful pre-Christian servants of God with a view to their serving on earth as princely representatives of the heavenly Kingdom. If that really occurred, it would mean that mankind had entered an era in which death would cease to be master, and millions then living could have the hope of never dying off the earth. What a happy prospect! Though mistaken, they eagerly shared it with others.
Once again *** jv chap. 11 pp. 156-157 How We Came to Be Known as Jehovahs Witnesses ***
Accepting the Responsibility..
Any group or individuals that speak in the name of Jehovah put themselves under obligation to convey his word truthfully. (Jer. 23:26-28)
*** jv chap. 28 p. 630 Testing and Sifting From Within ***
At that time there were certain obstacles to a clear understanding of matters. The Bible Students did not yet correctly see the position that natural Israel then occupied in relation to Gods purpose. This obstacle was not moved out of the way until it became overwhelmingly evident that the Jews as a people were not interested in being used by God in the fulfillment of his prophetic word. Another obstacle was the inability of the Bible Students to identify correctly the great crowd of Revelation 7:9, 10. This identity did not become clear until the great crowd actually began to manifest itself in fulfillment of prophecy. Those who severely criticized Brother Russell did not understand these matters either.
*** jv chap. 28 Testing and Sifting From Within ***
See The Truth Shall Make You Free chapter XI; The Kingdom Is at Hand; pages 171-5 also The Golden Age, March 27, 1935, pages 391, 412. In the light of these corrected tables of Bible chronology, it could be seen that previous use of the dates 1873 and 1878, as well as related dates derived from these on the basis of parallels with first-century events, were based on misunderstandings.
*** jv chap. 31 p. 706 How Chosen and Led by God ***
When the world entered the last days in 1914, what group proved to be the one true Christian organization? Christendom abounded with churches that claimed to represent Christ. But the question is: Which, if any, among them was meeting the Scriptural requirements?
The one true Christian congregation would have to be an organization that holds to the Bible as its foremost authority, not one that quotes scattered verses but rejects the rest when these do not conform to its contemporary theology. (See all the above blunders and false teaching they admit too during this time yet they say they are the only ones sticking to the Bible as their authority not mans thinking or interpretation)
*** jv chap. 31 p. 709 How Chosen and Led by God ***
It should not surprise us that in modern times too, Jehovah has often led his people as a progressive organization, gradually enlightening them as to Bible truths. It is not the truths themselves that change. Truth remains truth. Jehovahs will and purpose, as outlined in the Bible, remain fixed. (Isa. 46:10) But their understanding of these truths gets progressively clearer at the proper timeJehovahs due time. (Matt. 24:45; compare Daniel 12:4, 9.) At times, because of human error or misguided zeal, their viewpoint may need to be adjusted. For example, at various times in the modern-day history of Jehovahs Witnesses, their zeal and enthusiasm for the vindication of Jehovahs sovereignty have led to premature expectations as to when the end of Satans wicked system of things would come. (Ezek. 38:21-23) But Jehovah has not revealed in advance the exact time. (Acts 1:7) Hence, Jehovahs people have had to adjust their views in this matter.
One last time
*** jv chap. 11 pp. 156-157 How We Came to Be Known as Jehovahs Witnesses ***
Accepting the Responsibility...
Any group or individuals that speak in the name of Jehovah put themselves under obligation to convey his word truthfully. (Jer. 23:26-28)
Andi, playing "dumb" is very useful. Being curious is very useful. As long as they are in a position of thinking that 1) they have a prospect and 2) they will always be able to give satisfactory answers, then they feel extremely obligated to go that extra mile in researching to answer those innocent little questions.
The younger JW showed up today, with her daughter, but I didn't invite them to stay. I thought it over, and I think it's better to get her started with research (and give me a window where she thinks I'm reading her book) before sitting and talking and asking more specific questions.
I printed out the quote from the WT's official site (above) with its reference and gave it to her. She tried to minimize the date to something that the WT has not said, namely, the beginning of captivity. (Which is what the date actually does relate to.) I reiterated to her that the WT taught that the destruction of Jerusalem was in 607, not in 586/7 BC(E) as is accepted by secular and religious scholars. I explained that I had understood that this date was quite important for the WT's authority, and so the implications would be great if it were not correct. It was important to me. "You might have good windows, a new roof and a great door, but if your foundation is all off-kilter then the home is no good." Yes, yes, yes, they agreed.
So she said she was going to research this date. I told her that I had already done quite a bit on the internet since yesterday about it, and was confident that 586/7 BC would stand. I now have a big blue proclaimers book on my kitchen table. This will certainly be interesting--or else a snoozer. Like a bad sci-fi novel.
Well, time for coffee!
bebu
Hope that helps bebu..you can also get them to explain the emblems shown in the corners of old WT publications which are shown in the Proclaimers book.
One is clearly a Knight Templar crest...what posssible reason would they have to display this right up until 1930?
If Jehovahs name was the most important aspect why did they continue to use the KJV until they printed their own bible in 1950 when the American standard released in 1901 used jehovahs name almost 7000 times more than the KJV?
The answer...they used it because it backed their time calculation predictions and the ASV did not.
*** jv chap. 28 pp. 632-633 Testing and Sifting From Within ***
Later on, during the years from 1935 through 1944, a review of the overall framework of Bible chronology revealed that a poor translation of Acts 13:19, 20 in the King James Version, along with certain other factors, had thrown off the chronology by over a century. (It was the bibles fault not ours)This later led to the idea sometimes stated as a possibility, sometimes more firmly that since the seventh millennium of human history would begin in 1975, events associated with the beginning of Christs Millennial Reign might start to take place then.
Did the beliefs of Jehovahs Witnesses on these matters prove to be correct? (No but) They certainly did not err in believing that God would without fail do what he had promised. But some (all) of their time calculations and the expectations that they associated with these gave rise to serious disappointments.
