Are some physicist modern day gurus?

by frankiespeakin 15 Replies latest social current

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Would you concider someone like David Bohm or David Peat a guru of sorts?

    Here another link:

    http://www.fdavidpeat.com/bibliography/essays/nat-cog.htm#bib1

    Abstract

    An exploration of the meaning of non-locality is made in physics and thought. It is suggested that non-local correlations may play an essential role within the nature.

    Introduction

    The prime mover of the Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Theory, Neils Bohr, took pains to stress the essential wholeness of quantum phenomena. As a direct result of the indivisibility of the quantum of action, each experiment or observation of the quantum domain must be taken as an unanalyzable whole. Bohr's interpretation of the quantum theory had the effect of introducing a radically new idea into science, for up to that time it had been natural to define material bodies in terms of their properties and, in particular, their locations in space. Their behavior was then described in terms of the various forces operating between them which caused them to move or change their states. But now Bohr was denying the validity of this whole approach for, at the quantum mechanical level, he argued, bodies in interaction form a single, indissoluble whole.

    More recently this quantum holism has been underscored by the various experimental tests of Bell's Theorem. 1 In essence they indicate that two quantum particles--initially in interaction but now well separated in space must be represented by a single inseparable state. This notion of this inherent inseparability has led a number of authors to argue that a basic non-locality is essential to a quantum theoretical description of nature.

    Is this non-locality something that can be added to conventional quantum mechanics or is a radically different approach required? Is it possible to develop a description of non-separability within a purely local theory, or does non-locality represent a complementary form of description to that of locality? Could it be that the concept of space is far richer than physics has hitherto supposed, so that it contains a whole series of properties? And would this imply that physics should move to some deeper theory in which both locality and non-locality emerge as limiting forms?

    This essay is an attempt to explore, in very general terms, such a complementary description and to ask what may be meant by non-locality, not only in quantum physics, but very generally in other forms of thought and activity. Its aim is to open up the discussion of non-locality, to allow for other complementary views of space, time and causality, and to call for a formal development of new concepts. For, it is suggested, non-locality may indeed play a significant role in mind and nature.

    Locality

    For well over two hundred years locality has been fundamental to our way of looking at the physical world. Indeed it is so deeply ingrained in scientific thinking that a non-local form of interaction appears, in Einstein's words, as "spooky". 2

    A local description gives central position to the concepts of location and separation in space. Bodies are defined in terms of their spatial position and the trajectories they make. In turn, this description is founded upon the idea of a continuous manifold--a coordinate grid created out of dimensionless space (or space-time) points. Moreover, this manifold is supposed to exist prior to bodies and fields. Indeed it has an important ontological significance for, since the time of Clifford and Einstein there have been theoretical attempts to build fields and matter out of its geometry. A continuous space-time therefore becomes the ground out of which the entire physical world is to be built.

    To reject locality would therefore be to throw away the full potential of this underlying manifold. In addition, physicists would be forced to abandon a whole range of rich and powerful mathematics. This latter action would, in itself, involve a major revolution in science. But the idea of locality goes even deeper for it pervades the whole of physics in an almost subliminal way. Indeed even the attempt to discuss non-locality runs into difficulties with the very language we speak. Terms like space, distance, location and separation have all become colored by several hundred years of thinking about space in a particular way. There does not even exist a word to describe the concept we are now exploring--except in terms of the negation of "locality". Locality has become so deeply ingrained in the thinking of physicists that it now seems impossible to abandon it. Nevertheless, in the next section I will argue that non-locality is in many ways a more natural way of looking at the world and is certainly not alien to our deepest thinking.

    Despite the authority inherent in the locality of space-time, evidence is accumulating that it is an inappropriate way to describe quantum theory. Neils Bohr has called for a holistic approach to quantum phenomena, while Pauli and others felt that conventional concepts of space and time are inadequate for a quantum description. Current discussions of Bell's Theorem suggest that we may be forced to entertain complementary non-local descriptions-- although it may also be possible to develop purely local theories which forbid separability of certain quantum states.

  • kls
    kls

    Frankie i would like very much to answer your posts but man you always waaaaay over my head. I guess that puts me in the DAH class.

  • jaredg
    jaredg

    i wouldn't call them gurus but they are def. on the cutting edge of new thought.

  • Markfromcali
    Markfromcali

    I'm not sure what a guru is supposed to be, but those physicists would only be one in the intellectual sense by virtue of their work. This is of course how many use the word these days, computer experts become gurus in their field and so forth, but this leaves out a lot of human existence, and frankly just life in general.

    The funny thing about non-locality and wholeness is people don't even seem to have it together with their own body. Being that I do massage and sometimes active rather than passive bodywork I see people who's upper and lower bodies are not even coordinated, and that's not even disconnected in space. The same can be said about a person's psychological makeup - some parts may be pretty together but then that part isn't really coherent and whole with another part of the mind.

    Even though we have all these advancements in science today, human nature hasn't changed all that much. If we're going to consider the idea of "guru" in any personal sense, it would have to involve that individual's humanity and how well they can relate based on that humanity. I don't see how someone with knowledge in quantum physics can relate to other people and help bring about union on that level, using that knowledge. Of course physics stands on it's own, it is what it is, but understanding it does not in itself make one more conscious or aware, even of yourself.

    To put it another way, there is theory and there's practice - or experiment if you like. The theoretical work is strictly conceptual and mental, and is restricted to a small part of the mind. The practical work on the whole mind and in fact the whole human being is where it's really at.

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    They very well could be.

    If what they say or do stirs you to question and look deeper within yourself. However, this catalyst/guru/teacher could just as well be a cat, or a tree.

    Basically, there is only one teacher, that manifests in many faces, and it is closer than close.


    j

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    I guess what I mean by guru is some one that people go to for answers about life.

    I mean if physicist are saying the universe is non local that put a whole new perspective on life and what is real. So in that sense they would be like a guru in that what they teach can have a profound effect on those that listen to them.

  • Markfromcali
    Markfromcali

    Well in that sense Frankie it is like James said, the guru can be anything. I was just talking to someone though about the zen saying to protect the student from the teacher's influence. It has been explained that is like saying protecting the student from the idea that they are essentially different from the teacher.

    Consider: If this non-local thing is true, then essentially the teacher and student are also not separate aren't they? There is no higher and lower. Someone once asked Suzuki Roshi "what's the difference between you and me?" he said "I have students and you don't."

    In other words, the answer is also non-local. You are the answer, it is not to be found in a particular location in the mind or in that guru object over there, or a particular location in his or her mind. The guru then is just a relationship, a role based on your role of student or seeker. It just doesn't matter so much to focus on that appearance if you want to know the essential nature underlying it all.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/science/david_bohm.htm#CONTENTS:

    Truth Beyond Reality

    The Bohm-Krishnamurti dialogue set a profound precedent in being one of the first enduring dialogues between a leading Western physicist and a world-renowned Eastern spiritual master. Their discussions probed deeply into various dimensions of human knowledge and experience, including in-depth discussions of the limitations of human thought, the nature of insight and intelligence beyond thought, as well as many other topics such as truth, reality, death, existence, fragmentation, and the future of humanity. In exploring the distinction between truth and reality, for example, some of the jewels of insight that emerged may be summarized as follows (which, in the spirit of Bohm and Krishnamurti themselves, should perhaps be read slowly and contemplatively to be absorbed). There is a gulf between truth and reality; they are not the same thing. Illusion and falsehood are certainly part of reality, but they are not part of truth. Truth includes all that is; it is one. Reality is conditioned and multiple. Truth is beyond reality; it comprehends reality, but not vice versa. Reality is everything; truth is no-thingness. We need truth, but our minds are occupied with reality. We seek security in reality, but authentic security comes only in complete nothingness, that is, only in truth. The seed of truth is a mystery that thought cannot encompass; it is beyond reality.

    Such insights are characteristic of Krishnamurti's teachings. Indeed, perhaps the greatest impact of these dialogues on Bohm was a cultivated understanding of the limitations of human thought, as well as a deep realization of the existence of pure awareness beyond thought, wherein lies the source of all true insight, intelligence, and creativity. Bohm also had a number of meetings with other spiritual masters, most notably the Dalai Lama. The influence of spiritual teachings are apparent in all of Bohm's later work, and, indeed, they are perhaps particularly significant in his formulation of the superimplicate order, which will be discussed shortly. Bohm's work in physics is unique in that he built a spiritual foundation into his theories that gives them a profound philosophical and metaphysical significance while rigorously preserving their empirical and scientific basis .

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    kls,

    Don't worry about that. He's way over everyone's head. The things he is talking about i think have to be grasped as feelings of possibilities.

    The basics of what he is saying is that we don't have a clue as to what is the "truth". We all have our "realities" based on thought,, but this is not "truth" it is only what the mind limited by prejudice and faulty concepts inwardly pictures as reality. Truth is beyound reality and what the mind thinks. And in this he agrees with eastern mystics.

  • Terry
    Terry

    There has to be a difference between reframing an issue in new terms and merely rehashing old ideas with fresh perspectives.

    Mystics "seemingly" discuss the universe in terms of words so rubbery and laden with slippery inferences that it enables anybody to read anything into the conclusions. This is typical of religion, New Age thought, mysticism in general and undisciplined thinking.

    Physicists cannot answer philosophical questions nor even raise them with any authority because that is not their area of expertise. It is like hearing your orthodontist give his opinion on Shubert string quartets. Physicists are trained to examine how things happen and make consequent predictions about the implications which are then tested for soundness.

    Unfortunately, we live in a time where someone (anyone) with expertise in one field is considered equally learned and authoritative as an expert in another field. This is claptrap, of course.

    Non religious persons, such as myself, are perhaps their target audience. But, this is not the case. Once you've grappled with the very question of allowing an "authority" of any ilk to set the agenda for your thinking you are dealing with the other side of the same coin.

    I enjoy reading anybody's view of how the universe is put together. But, when Physicists wax poetic or philosophical my eyes glaze over. The late and great Richard Feynmann (a personal hero of mine) expressed it pretty well when he said, to paraphrase, anybody who claims to understand any of this is lying.

    The worst of the theory mongers is Stephen Hawking, in my opinion. He is the Hal Lindsey of the non-religious set.

    But, don't listen to me; this isn't my area of expertise either.

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