"Greater Fulfilment"

by IT Support 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

IT Support

Blondie,
I would suggest investigating the teachings of the Adventists (Second) who had a profound effect on Russell's teachings. Since so much was "borrowed" from them, you might find the foundation of this approach to prophecy.

A good idea, thanks. I'll post again if I find out any more.
Pole,
The greater fullfilment doctrine is a form of religious paranoia.

It's an interesting idea, you make a good case!
kwintestal ,
why would one prophecy have more than one fulfillment?? It's funny how the WTS attributes every new "fulfillment" of prophecy to themselves - just another ploy to use as "proof" that this is God's organization.

Exactly, that's what started me thinking about this. I've been doing some reading, and it appears that this idea of looking for 'hidden meanings' in the Scriptures is by no means new. Googling on "hidden meanings Bible" and "esotericism Bible" produces thousands of links!
One article I found interesting was written by Ron Rhodes, Esotericism and Biblical Interpretation (http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Esotericism.html).
Narkissos,
It's funny when you think that most if not all Bible "prophecies" which were fulfilled were actually prophecies after the event. I.e., not prophecies (in the sense of futuristic predictions) at all.

I'm not sure if this is what you were thinking of, but WT's "greater fulfilment" of Daniel 4 relies on Nebuchadnezzar's destruction of Jerusalem, which apparently took place many years before Nebuchadnezzar had his famous dream.
RunningMan,
Why stop at only 2 fulfillments?

Why, indeed! Very good point.
Anyone remember the words "type" and "antitype"?

Looking up these words in WT Library leads to WT Index and the entry for 'Prophetic Patterns.' Wow! I'd never realised there were so many...
Room 215,
Freddie's real Magnum Opus in the genre was the hallocinogenic You May Survive Armageddeon into God's New World

I remember hating the group when we studied "The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah"?How? Now I know why it was such mumbo jumbo!
Leolaia ,
The last time they used the "antitype"-"type" language seems to have been in 1999.

Interesting that they were using it up until so recently. Where and how was it used?
Blondie,
type and antitype are definitely Adventist terminology.

It's certainly looking like that's a promising line of investigation.
All this was used to establish the legitimacy, so-called of the WTS, as the only group with God's backing.

That's what makes it so bogus. As anyone could say--and, indeed, has said--they they have discovered hidden meanings in the Scriptures that have been revealed only to them as 'God's true channel of communication.' The more obscure and wackier their interpretation, the more convinced they become that their enlightenment is unique which, in turn, reinforces their belief in their 'chosen' status.
Preston and RunningMan,
I hear that the members of the governing body do all of their important thinking on the toilet...
That's because they're part of the "John" class.

Very funny, thank you for the laugh!
Minimus,
"Greater fulfillment" is code for "everything pictures us (JWs)."

A type of Prophecies 'R' Us syndrome.
frankiespeakin ,
And since it is about "them" it has got to be the "greater" fullfillment.

Cutting, frankiespeakin, cutting.
But very true. A 'superiority complex,' you mean?!
Thank you for all your comments. They've given me many ideas for further investigation.
Regards,
Ken
startingover

During a discussion with my loyal dub wife this morning, she brought up Daniel 2 and the image with the golden head, etc. I haven't given it much thought until now, but the JW interpretation does seem to fit. Comments anyone?
City Fan

startingover,
Daniel 2 is one of those 'prophecy written after the event' type chapters. There's the usual end-time denunciation against the Greeks and prophecy about god setting up a kingdom, which never happened.
This means evangelical Christian religions like the JWs are forced to drag the fullfillment of the prophecy into our time period (or else it would be false prophecy!).
A good book, if a bit heavy going in places, about this is 'Daniel' by John J. Collins from fortresspress.com.
CF.
IT Support

startingover,
During a discussion with my loyal dub wife this morning, she brought up Daniel 2 and the image with the golden head, etc. I haven't given it much thought until now, but the JW interpretation does seem to fit. Comments anyone?

City Fan's comment,
Daniel 2 is one of those 'prophecy written after the event' type chapters.

may well be true, but I haven't read the evidence.
However, it may be that WT's explanation is partially true, with the head, breasts and arms, belly and thighs and legs referring to Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.
But I don't believe their explanation of the feet and toes (Ango-American world power). Whereas Daniel's explanation of the other parts of the image refer first to Babylon (v38), then "another kingdom" (Medo-Persia: v39), then "another kingdom, a third one" (Greece: v39), then "the fourth kingdom" (Rome: v40), verses 41-43 don't talk about 'another kingdom' but rather that the kingdom (presumably still talking about Rome) would "be divided."
Then, while still talking about either Rome--or a divided Rome--verse 44 mentions God's "kingdom that will never be brought to ruin." It seems to me that this might refer to Jesus' appearance on earth, and the subsequent spread of Christianity throughout the earth.
However, that's just my speculation, I'm sure others have studied it thoroughly. Can anyone else comment more authoritatively?
Regards,
Ken
City Fan

IT Support,
One of the first things I looked at after leaving the JWs was the book of Daniel. If this prophet really had predicted the Roman Empire then surely there must be some truth to bible prophecy?
it may be that WT's explanation is partially true, with the head, breasts and arms, belly and thighs and legs referring to Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome
The image of Daniel 2 and the beasts of Daniel 7 refer to Babylon, Media, Persia and finally Greece.
The 'feet and toes' part was about the conflict between two of the Greek empires that appeared after Alexander the Great's death, the Seleucids and the Ptolemies. Both had periods of strength and weakness. The last empire named by the book of Daniel is Greece, not Rome.
verses 41-43 don't talk about 'another kingdom' but rather that the kingdom (presumably still talking about Rome) would "be divided
Exactly. It was the Greek Empire that got divided.
CF.
IT Support
City Fan,
Thanks for your interesting comments. May I ask:
- what was the fulfilment of Dan 2:44?
- when was the book of Daniel written?
- was it actually written by Daniel?
'Daniel' by John J. Collins from fortresspress.com

Looks like I'll have to add this to my (already pages-long) reading list!
Regards,
Ken
frankiespeakin

IT,
A 'superiority complex,' you mean?!
Yes if you want to beleive something not true you appeal to vanity, that emotion seem to block out true reasoning.
I'm thinking about those in control of the WT, since they are at the top and have a view from the top down this view must scream to their intelligence,, that they are not god's channel,,here indeed vanity would be a very strong force to push them over the edge of clear logical thinking,, a kind of dulling effect on the responciblity to be truthfull with one's self and others.
IT Support

frankiespeakin ,
I'm thinking about those in control of the WT, since they are at the top and have a view from the top down this view must scream to their intelligence,, that they are not god's channel,,here indeed vanity would be a very strong force to push them over the edge of clear logical thinking,, a kind of dulling effect on the responciblity to be truthfull with one's self and others.

I certainly agree that one would think that the GB ought to be embarassed by their self-aggrandising and delusional view of themselves. But I'm really not sure that they can all be tarred with the same brush.
On the one hand, I genuinely believe Don Cameron hit the nail on the head in his recent book, Captives of a Concept (the concept in question being that the Society is God's chosen organisation): I think many, possibly the majority, of the GB themselves are as much captives as are all JWs, and, indeed, as we all used to be. Having known a number of the GB over the years, I can vouch that some of them were, and presumably still are, as genuine and humble and honest as you could want--okay, they are naive, but they truly believe they are doing God's will.
(The real problem arises when an organisation believes it is divinely appointed--like the Jesuits of old, their zeal supplants their compassion and they then fall victim to the idea that 'the end justifies the means.')
On the other hand, I think some of them, a minority, are cynical in their manipulation of the majority of the GB. Is it their vanity that drives them? Quite possibly. And maybe also their love of power, of controlling other peoples' lives.
Regards,
Ken
frankiespeakin

IT,
I basically agree with your above post. I agree they are captives of a concept.
Having known a number of the GB over the years, I can vouch that some of them were, and presumably still are, as genuine and humble and honest as you could want--okay, they are naive, but they truly believe they are doing God's will.
A person can be given to vanity and still be humble and sincere. For if in their vanity they think they are a channel of communication from God to the world.
This this type of vanity would have to have a show of humility and honesty in order to further justify the vanity, which would even fool the possessor into thinking that's why god choose them (ie..because they have the right stuff to be used). Because they are not like mean old nasty christendom. They are no part of the world they don't vote go to war etc....
(The real problem arises when an organisation believes it is divinely appointed--like the Jesuits of old, their zeal supplants their compassion and they then fall victim to the idea that 'the end justifies the means.')
I'm sure the majority of the Jesuits went about normal day life as humble and honest persons,,but when their religious ideals were threatened,, well God didn't seem to mind if they used a little force or some other non christlike way to handle it.
I'm sure that there are moments where a GB may think about how rediculous it is to even claim to be god's channel,, but these thoughts carry so much dread if allowed to any considerable lenght of time in the conscious mind,, that most GBs to avoid this painful dread will quickly dismiss the idea and search out information that's seem to support their vanity(and offer them comfort). I think any thoughts of clearity are so very painful that each GB can not see thru the vanity very long due to the painfull emotions they bring up. Painful emotions are a powerful tool to keep one in ignorance.
czarofmischief

One of the justifications I recall was that the prophecies were not completely fulfilled when they were uttered. For instance, Isaiah's prophecies regarding the Restoration's Vegetarian Lions and Nonbiting Cobras were not fulfilled when the Jews returned from Babylon. Lions ate babies, and cobras still poisoned you. So the Society's reasoning ran thus, "Since God's word cannot fail, and all that he said didn't occur then, then there must be a future fulfillment". And hopefully this one will actually come completely true.
Only it didn't. And it won't. There is NO reason to allow for a future fulfillment, neither stated nor implied. It was just a guess, a lucky guess that has somehow survived hundreds of years... BS
CZAR

"Greater Fulfilment"

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