by frankiespeakin 26 Replies latest jw friends
Hi Frankie,
Who says our minds are dishonest? Some are, and some arn't. Most of us are somewhere in between. As for our emotions ... they are an important balance to our logical minds. Emotions make us human ... they are our heart. I prefer to stay as we are with our emotions, our flaws, and a few white lies here and there to compliment quest for truth.
This is not an objective question.
i think being dishonest with ourselves is a coping mechanism.. life is hard and unlike animals we have to live with and think about our mistakes daily. if a little delusion makes it easier to bear then ok. plus after the life i've had a little fantasy beats real life ANY DAY!
yeah, thats it.
Brummie
Sigmund Freud had terrible things to say about religious people. Upon psychological analysis, Freud concluded that religion is a profound neurosis. Those who believe in another world must be profoundly unhappy with this one and unable to cope with reality.
I think that Mr. Freud was a little harsh in his assessment of religious people. There are many valid reasons why a person could become "profoundly unhappy" with this world and wish for something more ideal. The realities of life are often quite unpleasant and difficult for even the most rational and realistic people to accept.
Interesting topic, frankie. I think part of the answer is conditioning. Christmas is coming up, so keep your eyes open for all the disturbing admonitions for children to believe in Santa Claus. Look for posters of Santa Claus with the word "BELIEVE" written on them. Look for countless reprints of the "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus," letter. Look for a televised documentary "proving" his existence!
Some always protest that Santa Claus is a personification of a generous spirit. But wouldn't it be more productive for parents to tell children that it's real, loving people who give, rather than a lie? Being raised as a Witness I was taught to be critical of such an obvious construct as Santa Claus, an unseen being with supernatural powers. I learned the lesson of critical thinking well. Now look at where I am!
Many spiritual traditions have posited that any "truth" could be attained only by some state of "selfless self". It is certainly a useful ideal, or utopy, or myth, one that should probably be echoed more in education. But will it ever be human reality? I doubt it. Why would a desireless and fearless individual live and speak in the first place?
The very idea of someone attaining anything is misleading and contradicts the idea of a selfless self. The whole point is it is reality whether the human consciousness recognize it or not. As far as why someone without fear and desire (depending on how you use that word) would do anything, it is precisely because it is free - free from needing some external motivator to move and act as it does. The egoic mind can only understand action based on such a motivation, but the free mind doesn't need it. In other words, the desire is not separate from the action. There is no suffering, no unfulfilled desire because all of it is actualized - there is a unity between mind and body, as well as the perceived self and others. But of course this is in the larger context of life, not like the egoic idea of having $47 million, huge pectoral muscles (or other tissue, as the case may be) and having all one's unconscious conditioning fulfilled as desire. That would be the bliss that is ignorance.
But beyond the aspect of freedom is the embodiment of that self realization, which essentially equates with love. That motive for movement is then love coming back for itself. It is a desire to free, not others, but the delusion of others. It goes much deeper than freedom from a life situation or a state of mind, (which implies it is not a polarizing to fluffy emotional states) it has to do with understanding your own nature, what you are. It doesn't mean you are emotionless like Spock, but all emotional states are expressions of that nature, you are neither limited to nor from certain ones. Furthermore it is not that the phenomena of individual, apparently separate human beings are a problem, but it is just not taken to be the self. So in that sense it is a transformation of consciousness, but it doesn't mean people will cease to exist - just not in the same confined way.
Narkissos : It is certainly a useful ideal, or utopy, or myth, one that should probably be echoed more in education.
Yep education somehow when its about others but and since whenever apparently the SOCIETY VALUE LIES, GREEDINESS, SELFISHNESS and HIPOCRASY ... (some have a master degree in the matter, and some are even re-elected as president Chirac and Bush lately) ... why should people want to be honnest ?
I'm sorry for a late response, I thought this got buried about a day ago.
Mark,
You have some interesting points,,I'm not sure I understand what you mean,,on a certain level.
The very idea of someone attaining anything is misleading and contradicts the idea of a selfless self. The whole point is it is reality whether the human consciousness recognize it or not.That everything in "existance" is the "self" which has no self?
Frankie - yes, basically. The thing is if there is not a separate self, which is all the selfless self means - then it isn't like that self attained anything is it? What's more, if the movement of 'attainment' is really a dropping away of the illusion of separation, you cannot attribute doership to a separate entity - it is not movement on that limited scale - it is more like a harmonization with a greater whole. Speaking of honesty, I just heard a great quote but I think it deserves it's own thread - so I'll post it under another heading..
Mark,
What's more, if the movement of 'attainment' is really a dropping away of the illusion of separation, you cannot attribute doership to a separate entity - it is not movement on that limited scale - it is more like a harmonization with a greater whole.
So then once one looses the illusion of separation or dropping away,,the identity loss causes a harmonization with the whole or "self" which does not have a seperate identity(being selfless). And at that point attainment is meaningless.
