Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

by dunsscot 137 Replies latest jw friends

  • dunsscot
    dunsscot

    Dear Copernicus,

    You write:

    :Please humor my curiosity when I ask at what point would you cease communing with the JW’s and finally take issue with their doctrinal framework? As far as positive changes go . . I myself would characterize positive changes as the dissolution of the Sanhedrin (GB) as we know it, and along with that an abandonment of the Talmudic mindset that has so mired the organization. I’ve said elsewhere that the org is infinitely more comparable to first century Judaism, with all its emphasis on works, rules, and punishment, then Christianity with its emphasis on the personal development of a relationship with God, and outward manifestations of the kingly law of love.:

    You raise a thought-provoking question, Copernicus. I guess I would answer it by saying the preponderance of evidence would have to strongly suggest the organization of JWs is not used by God at all in order for me to leave the Witnesses. In other words, after looking at the doctrinal framework in its entirety and finding gaping holes in many areas, after finding evidence that the Witness organization is simply a product of 19th century human thought and not of God, then I would refuse to associate with the Witnesses.

    But two things come to my mind at this point. Russell wrote that when he had to beg for money to keep the Bible Students or the Society going--I can post the exact quote later--he would then know it was time to close shop. Acts 5:35-41 also indicates that a man-made movement ultimately WILL BE overthrown. Until I see evidence that the Witnesses are simply a human organization, I will remain a Witness.

    The "truth" has had a tremendous and positive impact on my life. I have come to know God and Christ through this organization, and I have not found another group of Christians that comes anywhere close to serving as a pillar and support of the truth found in the Bible. If I left the Witnesses, I would probably worship God in isolation. However, worshiping God without a community of faith does not seem quite satisfactory either (Hebrews 10:24-25). You are free to and I know that others probably will argue with the thoughts I have typed in this paragraph. That is okay, for "the heart (le coeur) has its reasons which the reason does not understand." God's spirit leads the heart of one who seek to know his ways in a spirit of meekness. I think he is guiding me through His Word and the testimonium spiritus internum.

    :I’d be interested in your thoughts on this matter.

    Finally, you mentioned Greg Stafford in your response to Farkel. I’m not familiar with him (to any degree) or his “magisterial work” but I do seem to recall that he made a complete fool of himself on talk.origiens by attempting to defend the WTS’specious “scholarship.” How do YOU live with that aspect of things? Please recall my argument via “sum totals.”:

    It may seem as if I'm closing my eyes to "the whole," but I think that IF the WTS has made certain errors in its research, one has to stop and ask why they have done so. Secondly, I have not sat down with the _Life_ book, having AlanF's article in hand, and tracked down every source AF refers to in order to see if the material presented in the Society's publication (the Life book) is really an example of pseudo scholarship.

    At this point in my life, other matters are more pressing and more important. I'm examining doctrine, and comparing Witness doctrine with the Bible. I'm also leading a productive academic life, employing reason in my religious walk with God, as I wait upon Him to show me the way in which I should tread.

    Sincerely,
    Dan

    Duns the Scot

  • Copernicus
    Copernicus

    Dear Dan:

    I just now caught your post. For reasons of my own, I’d very much like to carry this on as a private conversation. If you’d be comfortable with that, will you forward an e-mail address (I promise you it will never be shared with anyone) to me at:

    [email protected]

    If I don’t see something in a day or two, I’ll answer in the normal fashion.

    We have more in common then you might think, my friend.

    Regards,
    Copernicus

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Talk about freedom of thought on this web site.

    Look at the freedom of thought on a JW site that follows theocratic guide lines.

    That which follows was pasted from "Witnesses OnLine.Com"


    Most of us that will be using this website have come from other websites that feature the Ultimate Bulletin Board. Many of us have great experience in using a program such as this to give expressiveness to our postings... that is one of the major reasons that we have spent so much time on websites as this. We enjoy it, because it's fun. Well, that is the goal of Witnesses Online.com, to provide an atmosphere of recreation and fun while at the same time providing a seriously informational website about the internet as it relates to Jehovah's Witnesses. With that in mind, we have to establish guidelines that will help to maintain that atmosphere.

    It is an observation that there are individuals who use the Internet who are not satisfied with being one of Jehovah's Witnesses. We acknowledge that. However, the vast majority of the people who patronize this website are perfectly satisfied with being Jehovah's Witnesses, and as such, this website is not established for individuals who have a problem with doctrine. It is not established for individuals who have a problem with their local congregation elders. It is not established for those who wish to dispense their feelings about the Watchtower Society. It is not established for those who want to reform Jehovah's Witnesses stand on blood and the use of Non-Blood medical procedures. It is not established for those who wish to disrupt the friendship and association that legitimate servants of Jehovah are enjoying by patronizing this website. We are of the opinion that there are plenty of other websites for which to do any one of these activities, and we encourage, if not strongly advise individuals who wish to engage in that sort of negative behavior to go elsewhere.

    Here is a list that further clarifies our stand.
    We will not allow...

    Public revealing of private judicial committee matters. We didn't ask, and you shouldn't tell.
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    Sentiments of the AJWRB and any debates on the current stand of the Watchtower Society on the issue of blood. This only leads to controversy and most importantly, we've all made our own personal choice, and stand by it.
    Posts that proclaim Ex-JWs as victims or Jehovah's Witnesses as a cult in general, or posts that debate Bible dates and doctrine. It is our observation that individuals that do this are not looking for real answers but just wish to draw attention to themselves. It's never for a good reason so we will not allow it.
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    Links to apostate websites. If you wish to see these websites, you will have to find them yourself.
    Potstirring just to "liven things up". This is something that has been tolerated at other websites, and it certainly is effective. However, as far as THIS website is concerned, no one else has the responsibility of making sure things stay lively except the moderators and administrators. That will NOT be accomplished by using issues or making issues out of doctrine, psuedo-traditions, or starting grey area debates. If this means that there will be "too much fluff" for you, then we strongly urge you to go to a website that will accomodate you.
    Enforcement of these guidelines will be very strict. If we find obvious disobedience to these guidelines, we will issue a warning, and any violations afterwards the offending individual will be banned from posting. You will not be able to say that we did not warn you or spell it out.

    The WOL.com Community has the atmosphere of family. There soon will be literally thousands of posters here, and the administrators of this website are doing all they can to make sure that the atmostphere remains safe and predictable. This is what we incite, as we all believe that we are brothers and sisters here. We like to stress that this is a recreational activity, and it's use needs to be balanced.

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    We have talked enough about what we don't allow... now let's tell you what we do want to see and what we will allow...

    Thoughtful posts.
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    Let's get to it, shall we?
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  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Big Ray and his Gang of Dozens are so funny. They've got everything so tied up that anything more substantial than expressing opinions about one's favorite color or chiming in about "Jehovah's wonderful organization" are disallowed. Kind of like expressions during a Watchtower study.

    AlanF

  • dunsscot
    dunsscot

    Dear Copernicus,

    You seem like an ethical person I can trust. I am reluctant, however, to give out my email or start an extended private discussion with someone who is not a JW.

    In the past I have allowed ex-JWs to email me. I really do not know what your status is, but the expereinces I had with former JWs were not good. Ergo, I've kind of lost trust in those who leave the organization, just as I sometimes lack trust in those who are part of the JW organization. In short, I have decisions to make in the next few months. This Witness does not want anyone influencing his decision by giving him certain perceptions of so-called "facts." I'll place my trust in God and Christ. The Bible and the inner working of the spirit will guide and direct me.

    Sincerely,
    Dan

    Duns the Scot

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    dunnscot,
    _____________________________________________________________________
    . In short, I have decisions to make in the next few months. This Witness does not want anyone influencing his decision by giving him certain perceptions of so-called "facts." I'll place my trust in God and Christ. The Bible and the inner working of the spirit will guide and direct me.
    _____________________________________________________________________

    I think those are some wise words if your honest with yourself you will find the right road.

    God bless you in your decision.

  • Copernicus
    Copernicus

    Dear Dan:

    I understand your sentiments completely and I appreciated your honesty.

    Actually, I was hoping that apart from this board, we might be able to talk about something besides religion. You do seem like an interesting fellow and someone whom I’d enjoy getting to know better. I do wish I had known more like you while I was in the org. The lack of any real intellectual outlet among the friends was very discouraging. I have never been one to be content with superficial forms of worship. Certainly, the “deep” things of God should warrant a through cognitive investigation, yes?

    Thanks for your assessment of me as an ethical individual; I hope I would qualify as such. It wouldn’t have been my intention to influence you in any way, although such attempts might have become inevitable, or even unconscious on my part.

    . . . I have decisions to make in the next few months.

    Yes, I would imagine this to be the case. I am confident you have all the tools and information necessary to make the right ones, eg: whatever works for you personally. I am a staunch advocate of informed choice and the personal freedom to exercise it.

    I am not DA’d of DF’d, but inactive. I believed that I was drawn to the org by Jehovah’s spirit. My experiences as part of the machine did thereafter crush and violate that transcendent initial motivation. I am still sorting it all out, and believe I will be for many years to come.

    I wish you the best, and greatly enjoyed your contribution to our flowering sense of Zeitgeist.

    My offer will always remain open,

    Copernicus

  • Jim Lad
    Jim Lad

    Well, I thought I was a reasonably intelligent man until I read this thread, 1/2 of it anyway, I'm tired. I realize I do like the laymen's approach to the deepest subjects. Also, I'm now more fully convinced than ever that philosophy really does bore the shit out of me. Sorry Duns, I'm staying out (17yrs in), the org just shrank another person,(I've finally joined my more sensible friends, which is easy when truly intelligent people can show how silly the organization really is). Thanks for that and looking forward to getting to know some of you better...

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