by Greenpalmtreestillmine 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I believe in baseball, hockey, family, working around the house, walking the dog and the Golden rule.
That's it. That's the list.
p.s. With all the hell people have been put through trying to figure out the bible if God want's to hold me responsible for not believing it all or spending anymore of my days trying to figure it out, well that's His choice. He should have made it more direct for me. God knows I was willing to believe, dedicate and do. But no more.
Nice post Leolaia!
I don't have a JW background, but I will echo a few sentiments.
The Bible is a mosaic of revelation. It reveals the character of God and men. It attracts me to God.
I think about the usage of "Word/word of God". The OT often says, "The Word of God came to so-n-so...". We refer to the Scriptures in general as "The Word of God", but this sense is not the highest sense. Jesus is called the Word--and the exact reflection of God and representation of His being, as said in Colossians.
A thing to ponder: The Word of God is called "the Sword of the Spirit". Not the sword of people. ...
I appreciate and reverence the Bible a lot. But I don't worship it. (I don't worship Mary either, for that matter, even though she was an extremely godly woman with a unique vocation as Jesus' mom, and an archtype for believers... )
bebu
Greentrees... My thinking has changed a lot over the last 10 years and drastically over the last 2 years. Personal difficulties and experiences have caused me to open my mind up for other possibilities, than just the Bible as God's word.
I believe...in every culture across the earth, people tried to understand the world around them. I can imagine a child asking his parents about the Sun, stars & moon, the trees, grass, animals and insects. I know my children never stopped asking. Answers back then were discussed or dismissed, the stories that people told that had the more logical or the most spectacular, exciting aspects to them...were likely passed down to the next generations. Finally, they were written down.
I think a Creator of some sort exists. To me, it explains the design that is seen in everything from the atomic level, to the human body and to the universe. Whether this is 'in-born' or just wishful thinking...a way to explain our very existance...I do not know. But, throughout history people everywhere usually have used the existance of a god or even gods...to explain why we are here, what makes the wind blow and why the Sun & Moon shine.
Is the Bible God's Word ? Or His only word ? I don't know. I have very little true knowledge of the Koran, the Book of Mormon, whatever texts the Hindu, Shinto, Buddist and hundreds of other religions that have millions or even billions of true followers.
To be fair, aren't most of us simply the same religion as our parents? (or used to be?) isn't this really the case for most people of ALL other religions? It's not that we studied with an open mind, all these different beliefs. We were just BORN into it. We feel comfortable and cozy and Oh so sure...it MUST be the Truth.
I have to imagine myself as a Supreme Court Judge when this subject is brought up. If a Christian and a Buddist come into my court and want me to decide "Which is the True Religion?" The Christian goes first and explains the Bible from front to back.
Having a "Christian" background what would you do? After all you KNOW the Bible is God's word, right?
Oh yeah...the other side. How many of you know people that will not accept anything other than the Bible ?
So, if we are to really be fair, we have to hear the Buddists side or the Hindu, Muslim, Shinto and all the rest.
Since I have not heard the rest, all I can say is Bible writers have tried to explain God in their own words. There are good life principles and metaphors that can teach us good things.
But, imo, MY personal idea of God is also slandered by stories of His supposed cruelty, His willingness to murder innocent people thru out the Bible to "prove a point". By the 2nd chapter of Genesis...He's portrayed as killing murdering an entire world of people. He killed murdered ALL the first born baby boys in Egypt, He threatens to kill BILLIONS in the future. He is a War-like god.
No, that is not what I WANT my God to be like, so I reject it. That is no more or less blind than any other belief.
I don't really know..do you ? Really ?
May you have peace!
I would like to respond to your initial response, if I may. Before I do, however, I wish you to know that this is not a challenge: I read a great deal of your responses and have great respect for your knowledge and intelligence. Also, I did not go looking for your response so as to challenge you: I had previously only noticed your response regarding the young women; however, when I opened this thread today (in a different manner than usual), your's popped up first, and so I began to read. If you would indulge me, then, I would like to respond to statements you've made as well as ask you a question or two. If you choose to ignore (no, I am not saying you will, as you don't usually, but that if you choose to), that's quite alright - I will take no offense whatsoever. But I found your response intriguing and interesting, so, if you will allow me...
Regarding the question of whether or not the Bible is the word of God, you state:
It is impossible to prove that it isn't the word of God.Wouldn't the fact that the Bible itself says what (or rather whom) the Word of God is stand as proof that it is not such word?
It clearly was written in its individual books by men at specific points in time, each with different viewpoints and perspectives, and it also clearly was a human endeavor to decide which books should go into the canon and different canons reflect different decisions on this matter, so these clear historical facts must be admitted as true,I absolutely agree.
yet it is not possible to demonstrate that God did not have a hand in their writing and compilation.Again, I agree.
Yet it also impossible to prove that the Book of Mormon or the Watchtower isn't the word of God either.Would not the fact that neither publications nor their authors/publishers claim them to be the word of God rule them out as such?
Yet it possible to say some things for certain. While the Bible does in certain places assert that it contains the word of God,This is where you piqued my curiosity: can you point me to the place(s) where such assertions are made? Again, this is not a challenge; rather, it is pure interest, as I have never seen such assertions and if they are there, I should truly like to know. I ask this in all sincerity.
It nowhere defines exactly what scripture is and what counts as scripture and what doesn't.Actually (and I mean absolutely NO disrespect here), the Bible does. Truly. At Luke 24:27, 32 and 45. Now, whether folks get what is being said there, or the truth that all other references to "the scriptures" in the NT is speaking about things written BEFORE the Son of God arrived in the flesh, is another thing entirely. Excluding, of course, the Revelation: it, too, is scripture, because it was written while a man "was borne along by holy spirit." None of the Gospels or Epistles can or do make this claim. At least two disclaim it in their openings, and others at points in the text.
These ideas come from outside the Bible itself and reflect later debates on defining scripture and canon (and these two concepts are not the same; the Christians who defined the Bible canon recognized a wider range of literature as "scripture" or "inspired" than what was "authoritative").You are partly correct, here. And again, no disrespect, but the idea that the Bible defines what is scripture is accurate. However, that the Bible itself is scripture... indeed, is the word of God... is false. That the Bible is inspired... is false. That scripture... is the word of God... is false. The truth is that the Bible... contains scripture... and other texts... about the Word of God... and it is also true that there is scripture... and such is also about the Word of God... that is not contained in the Bible canon.
So the idea that the present 66-book Bible is to be equated with God's word is unbiblical, just like the Trinity and other Catholic and Protestant doctrines which were developed later than the Bible itself.Again, you are absolutely correct, in content, if not in context.
What is much older is the idea that some body of scripture was divinely inspired.Actually, ALL scripture... is inspired. That's what makes is "scripture," per se: it was inspired by the Word of God, meaning that such One... who received power from God... thereafter by means of holy spirit... allowed those who were to "write" to become "in the spirit,"... meaning a transcendation... from flesh... to spirit... so as to be able to see and hear that which was of the Spirit: spirit... bonding and communicating with spirit... so that they were "one." In that way, the "inspired" writers could see and hear what took place, takes place and will yet take place in a realm outside this the physical, the spiritual.
But different writers (even Bible writers!) had different ideas of what that body should be and regarded many other books not found in our present Bible as equally inspired. So it was left to later church fathers to sort it all out.
Actually, it really was not left to the church fathers to sort out: such ones ("scribes and pharisees") took it upon themselves to do so. As their forefathers had before them. Why? Because of the power that doing so wielded. Like those before them who considered themselves learned men of the Law, they basically told the people what they wanted them to believe the Law required/stated/meant, versus what it did/does. They still do so today. Why? Because they know that if the people were to truly get it, what truly is written, they would be exposed for what they truly were/are: imposters. Imposters who seek glory from men, who bind upon men heavy loads which they themselves cannot even carry, who lord it over others, who seek the "greatest" position rather than the "least," who are served (under the guise of serving), who call themselves "rabbi," and "father," and "teacher" and all other kinds of names and titles of reverence, who LOOK like sheep... but truly, are nothing more than wolves in sheep's clothing. (Now, I know there are those who would disagree and say, "I know many 'good' men who serve God as pastors, elders, rabbis, ministers, priests, pontiffs, etc., etc., etc." Unfortunately, my response would be that such ones CANNOT serve God in such capacities, for if they TRULY were "good"... they would take the LOWEST "seat"... not the highest. Whether they be Jew... or Greek... Christian... or Muslim. The "law" for all three groups require it. They would follow the pattern of Abraham... or Moses... or Christ... all of whom considered themselves servants... rather than masters... slaves... rather than owners. Least in the House... rather than among the greatest. For such honor and glory has not yet been dispensed... for any of these groups. I digress...) But the Bible canonators are as they are because they were not and are not inspired, in that they did not make such choices by means of holy spirit, were not guided or directed by the Holy Spirit, and so, made and make choices beneficial to their own agendas. Believing themselves to be "wise" (discreet in their own eyes), they chose what they willed and will. Then... and today.
My own personal opinion is that the Bible represents a selection of the finest literature that ancient Israel, Judah, and early Christianity had to offer. It includes their laws, their history, their poetry, their songs, their proverbs and wisdom, their short stories. It should be respected for what it is and not be denigrated by modern standards and sensibilities.Wonderful! I absolutely agree and I have stated this in very similar terms many times.
As for the notion of divine inspiration, I would say that the Bible contains almost a millenium of man's experience of the divine (however one wants to define it) and people's attempts to understand God, and I believe that it was mostly written by people who have had personal experiences with the divine.Again, you are correct with regard to some instances. Not all, but some. Again, no disrespect.
Having Christian prejudices, I regard the Gospels and the synoptic sayings of Jesus in particular as precious jewels that have lasting power and should be listened to and, indeed, followed, as I feel they contain some of the most sublime expressions of morality and ethics I most cherish.But herein lies a good deal of the "christian," problem: many search the scriptures (meaning, primarily, the gospels) and read and reread them in order to know... ummmm... how to "walk" through their lives in a way that pleases God. Or, alternatively (and most shamefully), how to look at others in their walk so as to judge them. However, since such things are written down only on paper, there is the tendency to forget and have to reread and reread so as to be reminded, to have one's memory refreshed as to what is "good." If, however, such things were written on one's HEART, then they would be with one always... whether access to the writings are available or not... and would remain with one wherever one went, wherever one was in one's life. One would not need to look things up and refer to "what is written," because one would KNOW: it would have become so much a PART of one... as is one's own blood. THAT... is how it truly works, where Christ himself writes the "law"... on an individual's HEART. On a tablet... of FLESH. So that it is emblazoned, virtually tatooed. And any time a matter of morality, ethics, whathave you come up... one's own HEART reminds one of what is "good."
Of course, I do not regard them as unique in their power and importance (e.g. some rather similar Eastern expressions), and certainly not unique in their religiosity and interaction with the divine (again, however one defines it), and thus I have much more broad conception of scripture than most people.Good... is good. Whether it is written on a paper, in a book that is called, "Bible," whether it is related in a proverb of some sort, whether it is handed down by oral tradition. However, it is the HEART that should know whether such thing is really good... or just resembles good. If one's heart is not "clean," however, it does not matter what one reads... or hears... as such thing will appear or sound burdensome.
A final opinion relates to the context of biblical literature. The Bible was not handed down from heaven pre-packaged in a single leather-bound volume. It is a compilation, a library (biblia is Greek for "library") of separate works that reflect their own places and times, the intellectual and religious ideas of their different writers, and the very specific situations in which these works were written. What we have done is separated these writings from their original literary and historical context and bound them together in a volume with very clear borders. That's not what it was like when these books were originally written.You are absolutely correct! Unfortunately, many, many people do NOT understand that and it is because of the very ones who canonized it... and those who revere them and such canonization... that this is true! They have been TAUGHT... that the Bible is "holy" (don't most of them even say that on the cover?), that it is an object to be revered... it's contents the most precious thing in existence. They do not understand, however, that such reverence, in truth, smacks of "golden calf" worship: worshipping what one can see in place of that which one cannot see ("It is what we have until Christ returns!") That is exactly what the Israelites written about in the Bible did: lacking FAITH... they grew weary in their wait for their mediator's (Moses) return from down off the mountain, so they built a golden calf and began calling it, "JAH." And today, most so-called "christians," having grown weary in their wait for Messiah to return from Zion, have built NUMEROUS golden calves... and call them "holy." Religion... the Bible... etc., etc. They worship by SIGHT... rather than by FAITH... because they lack such faith. Were they to possess it, they would see and hear him, Christ, for he is indeed alive. He is just not FLESH... but spirit. Just as "the Bible" says he is.
I believe that to properly understand many obscure concepts and wordings in scripture, one must restore the biblical writings to their original context -- or rather, as much of their broader context that can be restored.And I know (again, no disrespect intended, truly!), that to properly understand the scriptures, their concepts, wordings, points, purpose, prophesies, etc., one need only go to the SOURCE... the One who inspired them... and about whom they are written... and ask HIM to unlock them. And he will. Absolutely.
The process of biblical interpretation should not approach the Bible as a single unified work with unitary themes and concepts as this would ignore the individual ideas of its respective writers and anachronistically interpret them on the basis of a compilation that did not exist at the time, while ignoring each work's own literary setting.Truly, if one were to do what the Bible SAYS to do (go the whom about whom it is written), one would not only see the "little" pictures manifested throughout the scriptures and other writings, but the BIG picture they all add up to: That God... SO loved the world... that He sent His ONLY-begotten Son... from the SPIRIT world... to the PHYSICAL world... to save ANY AND ALL in the physical world... who put their faith IN that One... faith... that says such one IS alive... that he DOES speak... and that ones CAN hear him... so as to FOLLOW him... because he is the One that knows the "way"... to "walk"... through the true "darkness" that surrounds us: hatred and hypocrisy... which makes us "lawless" (lacking the law... of love)... and leads to everlasting death. Follow that One... by listening to HIS voice... and no other... so as to be led OUT of the darkness that is hatred and hypocrisy... into the LIGHT... that is love. For LOVE... leads to LIFE: is it how we all came into existence in the first place; not by some "accident," but as a product of love. Love... begets good... and life... is good. Hatred and hypocrisy... beget bad... and death... is bad. Adam wanted to know good... and bad. As a result he... and the offspring he sold... all came to know good (life)... and bad (death). I bid you the greatest of peace, and wish you to know that I offer this in the spirit of Prisca and Aquilla, who, upon meeting Apollos, a man "aglow with the spirit," felt it their duty to "expound the Way of God... more correctly to him." In doins to, they did not consider themselves to be better than him or above him, or smarter or more "worthy" than him... but truly, his servant. As I am yours. And as such, they felt it their duty, in love, to give him what he was yet lacking... so that he could become whole... in his power of understanding. May you be granted ears to hear what the Spirit says, if you so wish it. A slave of Christ, SJ
I remember the JW religion teaching that the Bible was INSPIRED by God. Now, if an artist is inspirted by the mountains or by the beach and paints a picture, did the mountains or beach paint the picture? or did the artist?
That is how I feel about the Bible. I think many men sat and thought about God, much as people do today and they wrote down a lot of their thoughts and experiences and stories that pertained to the day. They wrote their thoughts down.
I think God teaches us about himself in his creation, spend a day outside. Spend a day in the mountains or near the beach and see if God inspires you. I hate to sounds like some nature freak, but the most spritual experiences I have ever had, were not in any church, they were outside where I was quiet in nature and it seemed that praying was so easy.
Get inspired yourself.
I agree with Kenneson as well!
I have certainly come full circle since I left the WTS from one extreme to another on certain beliefs---and I enjoyed what JTP posted!
Since reading the bible without the aid of WT glasses, I see Christ in a whole new way and a new appreciation of him than when I was a JW. I *am* thankful for that.
I am also of the opinion that you can take from it what you need to (my own type of selectivity :-) and use it personally. We all have different and diverse personalities and see things in our own ways, so I think that's important too. One group of passages might hit us really hard, like a "WOW" moment, and other parts will do the same for someone else.
I think, in the end, our hearts will be the barometer that will be judged (and not how much we did or did not do for the WTS)
Annie
I agree JustTickledPink, I believe that we are here to appreciate LIFE and
try to be the best person we can be, have faith that there is a loving and
caring God who just wants us to enjoy being alive and appreciate what he has
given us.
