How many went to heaven in the first century?

by truthseeker 16 Replies latest jw friends

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    If William Josephus estimated that by the end of the first century, there were about 1,000,000 Christians, and Paul wrote that the good news

    had been preached "in under all creation", then why did John say in Revelation that only 144,000 would go to heaven?

    Why were those who numbered more than 144,000 Christians prior to John's Revelation in 96AD not informed that there hope was invalid?

    This has greater implications - the Governing Body and Anointed Remnant are not going to heaven either?

    It's interesting to note, that the Gospels and book of Acts talk more about the "Kingdom of the Heavens" than the paradise earth, so obviously

    in most peoples minds, heaven was the place to be.

  • aniron
    aniron

    There is a difference of opinion on how many Christians there were in first century. Figures vary from 50,000 to 2.5 million. There is no way of really knowing the number.

    According to the Watchtower organisation the full number of 144,000 was not completed until 1935. So figure that out from all the millions of Christians there had been up until that date. The thousands who died through persecution in the first and second centuries would cover 144,000 many times over.

    PS. Can you give reference were William Josephus says there was 1 million Christians in first century.

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Hi Aniron, interesting points.

    I think I got the 1,000,000 Christians muddled re: the quote, it was around the 500,000 mark. Other sources suggest 1 million Christians, but exact numbers are hard to come by. There were no field service reports then.

  • blondie
    blondie

    Actually, the WTS teaches that none of the anointed could go to heaven after death until Jesus came in kingly power. Initially, they taught that happened in 1878 since they also taught that Jesus' presence began in 1874.

    Later that was adjusted to 1918 when 1914 was the new date for Jesus's presence.

    As to the question others seem to be responding to, how many were of the anointed in the first century; doesn't history say there were more than 144,000 Christians back then: Notice how the WTS spins a fairy story in 1952.

    ***

    w52 1/15 p. 62 Questions from Readers

    ? According to the article "Hated for His Name" in the September 1, 1951, Watchtower, hundreds of thousands of Christians died in the "ten persecutions" starting in Nero?s time, 144,000 dying in Egypt alone during one of the persecutions. How can this be harmonized with the Scriptural limitation of 144,000 placed on the number being in Christ?s body, and which position was the only one open to Christians during those centuries??J.A., Dominican Republic.

    The article did not class with any finality the individuals that died during these persecutions, but spoke of the results in a general way. Note that a key qualification was made in the case referred to in the question: "In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works." The victims are identified as "professed Christians", not Christians in fact. Many of those persons might have been caught in the wave of persecution, but may never have actually preached the truth or followed in Jesus? footsteps, being only professed Christians. They knew the world they lived in was rotten and they were listening to the message of the Christians and willing to die for it even though not in line for the high calling in Christ Jesus. Many professed Christians today might be willing to die for their faith, but still not be Jesus? footstep followers and meeting the Scriptural requirements for such.

    And in 1972 they continue to know who the true anointed are

    ***

    w72 7/1 pp. 415-416 Questions from Readers

    ? Large numbers of Christians are said to have been put to death during the Roman persecution in the first few centuries of the Common Era. How, then, is it possible for thousands in this century to have been called to become part of the body of Christ composed of only 144,000 persons??U.S.A.

    There are historical indications that many Christians were bitterly persecuted, even killed, in the first few centuries. However, it should be remembered that, in itself, a martyr?s death did not give a person merit before Jehovah God nor did it guarantee membership in the heavenly kingdom. Many persons, even in recent times, have been willing to die for a cause, religious or otherwise. A person?s claiming to be a Christian and even dying for his belief does not in itself mean that he is an approved servant of Jehovah God. As the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "If I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all." (1 Cor. 13:3) It is not death, but faithfulness to the very death, that determines whether an individual will receive "the crown of life."?Rev. 2:10.

    Thus the fact that today there is still a remnant of the 144,000 on earth would show that down to this twentieth century fewer than 144,000 finished their earthly course in faithfulness. (CIRCULAR REASONING)

    While some persons may be inclined to think that more persons must surely have been involved even as far back as the early centuries of the Common Era, actual proof to this effect is completely lacking. Today it is impossible even to establish how many persons were killed, much less the number of those who proved faithful to death. "We have practically but few facts to go upon," writes Frederick John Foakes-Jackson in the book History of Christianity in the Light of Modern Knowledge. He further states: "The testimony to the persecution by Nero is recorded by two Roman historians, Tacitus and Suetonius, both of whom were very young when it occurred, and wrote in mature life. There is no contemporary Christian document describing it, though it may be alluded to in the book of Revelation. . . . Tertullian at the end of the second century is our authority that Nero and Domitian, because they were the two worst emperors in the first centuries, persecuted the Christians." Early in the third century C.E., Origen (a Christian writer and teacher) observed: "There have been but a few now and again, easily counted, who have died for the Christian religion."

    Much that has been written about Christian martyrs is embellished by tradition and therefore unreliable. For example, the martyrdom of Polycarp of the second century C.E. is described in Fox?s Book of Martyrs as follows: "He was . . . bound to a stake, and the faggots with which he was surrounded set on fire, but when it became so hot that the soldiers were compelled to retire, he continued praying and singing praises to God for a long time. The flames raged with great violence, but still his body remained unconsumed, and shone like burnished gold. It is also said, that a grateful odour like that of myrrh, arose from the fire, which so much astonished the spectators, that many of them were by that means converted to Christianity. His executioners finding it impossible to put him to death by fire, thrust a spear into his side, from which the blood flowed in such a quantity, as to extinguish the flame. His body was then consumed to ashes, by order of the proconsul lest his followers should make it an object of adoration."

    Whatever the source of Fox?s information, manifestly little of this account is truly historical. Nevertheless, if the allusion to the adoration of the remains of Polycarp is to be viewed as indicating the existence of relic worship among professed Christians of the second century C.E., this would be additional evidence that many at that time were not faithful worshipers of Jehovah God. Christians were under command to "worship God," not relics. (Rev. 19:10) In fact, idolaters are among those specifically named in the Scriptures as unfit to inherit the Kingdom.?1 Cor. 6:9, 10.

    If others more qualified want to comment on the downgrading of the secular historians, I look forward to it.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    then why did John say in Revelation that only 144,000 would go to heaven?

    Revelation does not say that only 144,000 would go to heaven. This is what the Watchtower says, not what John of Patmos says.

  • Mary
    Mary
    In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution...The victims are identified as "professed Christians", not Christians in fact.

    Oh brother, is that really the best they can come up with?? Isn't it nice to know that professed Christians in the 20th Century can identify who were "real Christians" and "professed Christians" 2,000 years ago??

    Many of those persons might have been caught in the wave of persecution, but may never have actually preached the truth or followed in Jesus? footsteps, being only professed Christians.

    Notice how the whole bullshit doctrine of the 144,000 relies on one word "might"?? What happens if those persons actually DID preach about Jesus and were therefore REAL Christians, not just "professed Christians"? Then that blows their ridiculous idea that the majority of the 144,000 were all chosen in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

    They knew the world they lived in was rotten and they were listening to the message of the Christians and willing to die for it even though not in line for the high calling in Christ Jesus.

    LMAO!! Bullshit! According to the Borg's own literature, ALL first century Christians had the heavenly hope. And according to the WTS, the beginnings of apostasy didn't start till around 70CE or 80 CE----Nero started persecuting the Christians in 64 CE.

    Many professed Christians today might be willing to die for their faith, but still not be Jesus? footstep followers and meeting the Scriptural requirements for such.

    Ya, they may be willing to die for their beliefs, but if they're not getting 10 hours of banging on doors every month, or if they have a beard, then I guess they don't meeting "the Scriptural requirements for such." Thank goodness we've got the Goober Body to clarify such "truths" to us.

  • JustTickledPink
    JustTickledPink

    I love the way they KNOW who is going to heaven and who isn't... yeah, a guy that died "professing" to be a Christian, that in fact was murdered and was a martyr for his faith, might only have "professed" and might not qualify for being a "real" Christian.

    I ask of you, how many JW's today would actually line up to die for their beliefs... seriously get killed? Would the FDS line up? the Governing Body??? Humph, I guess we will never know if they only profess or are REAL christians.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Truthseeker,

    With the exception of Chnst the correct answer is NONE!

    The hope of the faith was always the resurrection of the dead and not some transformation from human to non-human form. This is why Our Lord promised to return here once again as a human Being to rule His Kingdom in the line of David.

    The Kingdom of the Heavens is simply a Jewish way of saying the Kingdom of God and the terms are interchangeable in the Gospels. Nothing in this expression suggests a destination other than earth as this Kingdom was simply Heavenly or higher in authority than present human Kingdoms. JW?s do not get it as they do not understand scripture and their doctrine of the heavenly 144,000 demonstrates their ignorance of the sacred text.

    Joseph

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Drawing from Approaching Jehovah's Witnesses In Love by Wilbur Lingle,

    The book of Acts mentions many thousands who were saved during the initial thirty years:

    • 3,000 (Acts 2:41)
    • daily saved (Acts 2:47)
    • 5,000 (Acts 4:4 )
    • many (Acts 9:42; 17:12; 19:18)
    • As many as were ordained to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48)
    • Many ten thousands [lit. myriads] (Acts 21:20. This is a very important verse. In the NWT it is translated "thousands" in the text, but in the large reference edition of the NWT a footnote reads: "Lit., ' myriads: tens of thousands."' By adding "many" to "tens of thousands" you get a very large number of believing Jews, people who are both physical and spiritual Jews.)

    Adding together all these mentioned in the Book of Acts alone could easily come to one hundred thousand.

    Another point: If 20,000 JWs in 1919 could grow to 5 million in 1990, a period of 70 years, is the WTS taking credit for being able to evangelize so much more in 70 years than Jesus Christ and his apostles? The book of Revelation was written about 70 years after the founding of the church. Are we to believe that the pure church, without elements of apostasy to receive "new light" on and get rid of, could not realize even 144,000 conversions in 70 years?

    Are we to believe, also, that this "pure church" was built upon such a weak foundation that it immediately collapsed upon the death of the original apostles? Are we to think that their evangelizing efforts were a complete, monumental failure?

  • heathen
    heathen

    Some good points being made here . It is clearly speculation from the WTBTS . The bible does say that you must fight the fine fight of the faith to the finish in order to be counted worthy but there doesn't seem to be concrete evidence to support that the 1st century christians and the 144k in revelation are all added up to 144k . It looks to me as if 144k in revelation are all alive during the time of the end of the world at some point restoring bible truths and being tested . There are alot of things I could get into but why bother?

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