I have a question as to who the WTBTS teaches is the faithful and discreet slave. I am not a JW, never have been. My husband though is reading a lot of their books and such. We were arguing about something JW related the other day - I think Christmas, cant remember. Anyways, as usual it went in a hundred different directions. I brought up that I believe they teach that the faithful and discreet slave is the governing body or the WTBTS as a whole. He got really angry about that and said no way, that it represents any christian. I told him I didnt think that is what the JW's teach though and he got really angry and wants me to back up my words. I know I've glanced in some of these books he has and I'm sure I've read it in there. Can anyone help me out, or am I wrong on this? Oh - he did admit that they taught at one time that Russel (I think) was the f&ds, but that they dont anymore. Whenever I bring up flip-flops on doctrine he says he doesnt care what was taught a long time ago - that if it's not taught since about the year 2000, he doesnt care. Gave me a long speech about king David and how God left him in power even though he was doing wrong.....I have a hunch that he was given that particular speech by his JW friend he meets with after I brought up a bunch of stuff. Sound familiar to anyone? Thanks for clearing these things up for me.
Faithful and Discreet Slave "class"
by snbdye2000 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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under74
Witnesses of Jehovah understand that the "slave" (of Matthew 24:45) is comprised of all anointed Christians as a group on earth at any given time during the 19 centuries since Pentecost. Accordingly, the domestics are these anointed followers of Christ as individuals." As individuals, or "domestics," these anointed or "born again" followers of Christ, are said to be represented and fed by the "slave," who represents them all as a collective body or group.The "belongings" then represent all of Christ's interests on earth, which supposedly include a non-anointed or non-"born again" earthly class of Christians, which are interpreted to be those of the "other sheep" in John 10:16 and the "great crowd" in Revelation 7:9. -Watchtower March 1, 1981.
I'm sorry your husband has got into this. He should know and care about what's been taught before 2000 because it's the basis for JW beliefs. By the way, the organization has flip flopped so many times that they have a term for it- "new light."
Some good resources are:
freeminds.org
http://watchtower.observer.org -
FreeWilly
You should agree with him and tell him that, yes, that does seem to be what the Bible teaches - everyone can be a faithful and discrete slave if they act accordingly. But warn him that JW's will try to convince you otherwise.
You need to get a good book on JW's for him. I'm not sure of the Best one to suggest (maybe someone else can), BUT get someting you and he can reference. I recommend one that does not argue from an alternate religious viewpoint. Just somethin nuetral that uncovers all of their predictions, whacky teachings and destructive family policies.
This is very serious. If your husband becomes a JW it WILL mean bad things for your marriage, family and friends. Do not be complacent, do your research. Make sure you accompany your husband on any Bible studies he has with them. Ask the tough questions. Bring a JW expose' book so you have references on hand.
Here are a couple of Doosies you can ask:
Is it true that the Watchtower Society disfellowshipped people who spoke out against fellow JW's who had molested them? (there are numerous reputable News articles and reports detailing this)
How many times did the Watchtower predict the End of the world would come on a certain date? (try to get a number out of them. They will try to imply "never", but then show your hubby just how many times they did).
Do JW's feel that everyone else will be killed by God at Armageddon? (they will try to say "no" or "Only God knows for sure". Then you show your husband what they actually teach from their own literature.)
Just ask the tough questions and let them hang themselves with their own answers. You don't have to refute them right there and then. Just look up the info when it's just you two. Stay active on this board, thee are alot of smart people who can answer just about any question you have about them.
Whatever you do, work hard not to alienate yourself from your husband in any way. Try not to make it seem like a competition or battle of opinions. Remember you two are in this together. Don't let them do anything apart from the both of you. If you start asking the tough questions they will try to convince him, apart from you. He needs you, but just doesn't know it.
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snbdye2000
under74: Forgive me, but I am totally lost on what you wrote. I've read it and re-read it and it makes no sense to me at all. Not sure what I'm missing here. Help me out some?
FreeWilly: Thank you for the advice. I have done a ton of research on this. I found out about my husband studying with a JW on his lunch breaks at work about a year ago. And it has caused a lot of trouble in our marriage. But I dont argue doctrine with him too much anymore like I used to. If we do get into an argument, it's usually because he wants to "prove" he's right and I'm wrong. I just dont go there very often. I can accept his beliefs, but I will never accept the WTBTS in my family. My husband has read Crisis of Conscience. For awhile there after he read it, he was I believe seeing the organization for what it really is. He even threw away all JW books he had received. But not very long afterwards I found a whole new set of books in his car. Not long ago he told me that at his meeting with his JW friend, my husband explained that he would never go along with the blood issue, or believe that there is a seperate "anointed class". They stopped meeting for awhile after that. I think they're starting up again now, because he's starting in on Christmas now - we've always celebrated it before, but now he thinks it's bad. I respect all of you who dont celebrate it, but I dont accept that I have to give it up now because my husband has decided so! He's very confused right now I think - I mean he celebrated Halloween, took our daughter trick-or-treating, celebrated Thanksgiving, even did all the shopping for it! But now says we cant have a tree in the house. Who knows though, maybe tomorrow it will be ok to have a tree. He flip-flops so much I cant keep up. Regardless, I will have my tree and celebration whether he likes it or not. I'm willing to buy a much smaller tree than in the past, but I wont just give it up. He did say he just wants to read the Bible and will give back the books - and wants to use a greek translation book to read along with it. Anyone know what I should get? He brought home a diaglott from his JW friend, but truthfully I dont trust anything this man hands out. I have never met the man, and have no desire to meet him. I understand what you are saying about meeting with them, but I just cant do it. As it stands, we dont discuss religion much, but I believe I have planted enough little seeds of doubt in his head to keep him from getting babtized. Only time will tell though. I am completely amazed though how badly he defends them and their changes in doctrine, etc. when he's never even been a member! He completely ignores all their false prophesies, old teachings, etc. I likened it all to a bad tree - like the Bible says, a good tree doesnt bare bad fruit - and all their flip-flops and such are bad fruit. So he told me the story about King David. Blows my mind. Well I'm rambling - thanks for sharing with me.
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Pole
If your husband believes all christians can be "faithful and discreet" slaves, then you should inform him that according to what the JWs teach, in the very best scenario there are only ca 8500 true christians in the entire world if we believe their latest statistics.
The faithful and discreet slave has a number of special priviledges, such as:
1) They are the only ones to receive special understanding of the Bible from God.
2) Their interpretations of the bible are the only correct ones and they should be implemented whenever they're published in the Watchtower. Anyone who refuses to accept their interpretations may face disfellowshipping as a stubborn apostate.
The slave, just as other "annointed Christians" (altogether 144k of them have been chosen in the course of history, 99% of current JWs are not "annointed") is special in other respects too:
3) They are the only christians who will live in heaven.
4) They are the only christians who can be called brothers of Christ, since they have a special covenant with him which is practically unavailable for "the other sheep".
5) Once in heaven they will rule over other christians who can only hope to live on Earth.
6) They are the only ones to receive immortality, meet God personally and live like angels.
7) As spiritual heros they will take part in the destruction of billions of people in Armageddon and later in the destruction of Satan and other wicked folks.
Nice fringe benefits aren't they? Of course JWs will use a lot of spin to present these "truths" less directly, but if you ask them repeatedly and directly they'll admit all of the above. You can find lots of quotes from their literature to prove it. It's just so much of BS, that even they find it uneasy to consider seriously.
Pole -
under74
Okay the first paragraph is a quote from the watchtower saying that the slave are the "anointed" ones or the "144,000" that will be the only ones to go to heaven and rule alongside Jehovah and these people are represented by the governing body--so the anointed and the governing body are the discreet slave. Everyone else is considered "other sheep " or "the great crowd." The great crowd is not part of the "faithful and discreet slave" class.
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FreeWilly
I'm sorry to hear your plight snbdye. I'm not too sure what to suggest. He seems determined and the JW snake on the other end seems content to spoon feed him their fantasy world story.
Is there any chance you could get him to discuss it here? Maybe having a dialog with some of the folks here can at least get him to think about a few things. Just a thought.
In case you didn't know, this site is mainly frequented by ex-JW's who have found their way out of this harmful group. Lots of experience and insight here.
Tell him I'd like to ask him a question about his study with the JW's. He can PM me here or just post a message.
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AK - Jeff
You are correct that the organization of Jehovah's witnesses (then known as International Bible Students) did until at least 1927 teach that Charles Taze Russell was 'the faithful and wise servant'.
Since your husband will only accept the current view as of any value (gee - he already sounds like a witness to me) then this quotation should interest and answer the question;
in Step!Keep
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Kingdom interests on the earth have been entrusted to "the faithful and discreet slave," which is represented by the Governing Body of Jehovah?s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) The Governing Body is primarily concerned with providing spiritual instruction and direction for the Christian congregationWatchtower 2001 1/15 page 21 Article "Keep in Step with Jehovah's Organization
Many books have been written that may aid your research - I will recommend two that I have read and one that I am soon to read and have seen parts of -
Crisis of Conscience Raymond Franz (Former Member of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses)
In Search of Christian Freedom Raymond Franz
Apocalypse Delayed Jim Penton
As stated by others in this thread - please take this issue seriously - if your husband becomes a witness he is not just taking on a religion as vehicle to worship God - he is becoming a vehicle of an organization. Read some of these threads and see just how much pain has been endured by thousands. Some, most believed just as he is doing, that is was 'the truth' - now that we have wasted lives and years finding out that is isn't - we are being shunned and treated insolently by those who were our friends, but who now reject us as 'enemies of God' - our sin? Thinking and serving God as we see fit. Be careful.
Success to you -
Jeff
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M.J.
My opinion on the matter is that since he's already read Crisis of Conscience, he already knows everything he needs to know FACTUALLY about why the WTS is not God's organization. Now, what you are seeing are the lingering effects of his PSYCHOLOGICAL attachment/attraction to the group. Factual information in itself does not eliminate such psycholigical issues. I suggest you read all you can about psychological issues. A good starting point is
http://www.freeminds.org/psych/psych.htm
Of course there is so much here it can be overwhelming, I understand.
In particular, I like these articles:
http://www.freeminds.org/psych/club.htm
http://www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm
http://www.freeminds.org/psych/cultptrn.htm
Ultimately, I think it would be a great idea to have your husband read "Combatting Cult Mind Control" (available at freeminds.org). It does not even mention JWs but you can pitch it as containing the criteria for groups that are of concern to you.
Of course if you wish to go this route, you can schedule a phone consultation with an exit counselor (after you've read up on mind control), such as Steven Hassan at www.freedomofmind.com.
The time to act is NOW. You don't want to passively let this go any further than it already has. Once he's baptised, it's a whole new ballgame.
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minimus
All anointed ones on earth at any given time. The total amount of that Slave is 144000. They began as a group on Pentecost 33CE and have continued thru the centuries to the present.