Let's play 'Devils Advocate'. . . . . . . . . .

by nicolaou 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • under74
    under74

    "sometimes God's requirements are like that. We just don't get it at first but we should nonetheless trust that Jehovah loves us and that while his requirement (shunning, no blood etc) may seem harsh, they are in fact for our own good."

    Interesting. But you need the Governing Body to tell you what Jehovah's requirments are? Otherwise you're lost?


    Reporting child abuse-

    By Torcuil Crichton
    Sunday Herald

    Scottish branch of world church alleged to have sheltered abusers and kept information from police The Jehovah's Witnesses Church in Scotland stands accused of sheltering child abusers and keeping secret files of known paedophiles within the organisation which it refuses to share with police. After a successful prosecution over child abuse within a Jehovah's Witnesses family in Ayrshire, Scottish police are understood to be preparing to bring a further case to court in the northeast.
    The Jehovah's Witnesses church, which has six million members around the world, has been convulsed by revelations that its elders have protected sex offenders, failed to report accusations to the police and even punished children and families making accusations.
    The Watch Tower, the church's worldwide head quarters in Brooklyn,is struggling to regain its battered authority after a string of child abuse cases stretching from the US to Scotland. An investigation by the BBC's Panorama programme has discovered that the Watch Tower Society keeps a worldwide database of members accused of child abuse. The list,which is claimed to contain more than 20,000 names, is based on details held by each Jehovah's Witnesses congregation and many of the names on that list have never been reported to the police.
    Allegations of child abuse within the church first emerged in Scotland in the quiet seaside town of Stevenson in Ayrshire when 19-year-old Alison Cousins went to the police after being branded a liar by church elders to whom she had turned for help.
    Cousins, who was brought up in the Jehovah's Witnesses, went to her church elders three years ago with the shocking allegation that her father, a respected member of the congregation, had been sexually abusing her. Cousins, who followed the strict church rules that any allegations of wrongdoing must be dealt with within the congregation, broke down as she told her story to the men who dispensed moral guidance to the flock. In return she was told that she should do nothing.
    'They told me that one of the scriptures in the Bible was that you should never take your brother to court,' Cousins told Panorama. 'And I said to them, 'Well what are you meant to do then if he's doing something wrong?' And they said, 'Come to us and we'll deal with it.''
    The church law which dictates that members must turn to elders rather than the police also demands that there must be two witnesses to a crime before taking any action. The biblical citation for this is found in Deuteronomy 19:15: 'No single witness should rise up against a man respecting any error or any sin. At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses the matter should stand good.'
    In instances of child abuse, where there are no witnesses other than the child involved, critics of the church say the guide lines amount to a 'paedophile paradise'.
    Eventually, because she didn't have corroborating witness statements for the elders, Cousins went to the police last year and as their investigation began, she made a shocking discovery. Church elders had known for three years that her father had been abusing her older sister, that he had confessed to the church but that no action had been taken.
    Her father, Ian Cousins, who has since been prosecuted and sentenced to five years in jail, had merely been reprimanded by the elders and sent home where his abuse simply shifted from one sister to the other.
    The way Cousins's case was dealt with by the church is not an isolated incident. The Jehovah's Witnesses are now reeling from a series of scandals worldwide and allegations that its self-styled Child Protection Policy does nothing but protect abusers and fails to ensure allegations of abuse are reported to the authorities.
    According to its critics, child abusers within the organisation are protected by its strict biblical laws and the threat that any member disregarding the advice of elders by going to the police faces the prospect of being denounced and cast out of the congregation.
    The organisation insists that it has a strict child protection policy and defends the database of self-confessed offenders as part of its strategy of dealing with abuse without referring to the judicial system.
    The church keeps the existence of the list a closely guarded secret.Watch Tower states that it uses the list to monitor the activities of the men who stand accused of raping and molesting children. But former members of the church claim that keeping the list secret effectively shields abusers and allows abuse to continue. In the American Bible belt of Kentucky, Bill Bowen, who has spent his lifetime as a Jehovah's Witness and more than 20 years as an elder, claims the organisation covers up abuse by keeping this database secret.
    According to Bowen, who has become a thorn in the flesh of the organisation, his sources inside Watch Tower indicate there are 23,720 abusers on the secret list -- who are protected by the system.
    'Every detail is written down about what happened ,' said Bowen. 'If this man moves anywhere, then if any allegation surfaces again, this is the way they monitor these people.'
    The church in the UK and the US refuses to discuss the list or its details with anyone not personally involved in a case. It was that wall of anonymity that allowed Cousins's father to remain at home and unchecked with his daughters at risk.
    Bowen began his campaign to expose the church after having to handle an abuse case in his own congregation and becoming disturbed by the pressure it puts on the victim.
    'When an allegation of abuse happens, parents are required to go to the elders first,' said Bowen. ' If the abuser denies the charge, they will turn back to the child and say, 'Do you have two eye witnessest to what happened?' That means the child and one other witness .'
    According to Bowen, if there is not a basis to establish the allegation with two witnesses, the pressure is then turned on the accuser. If there is no corroborating evidence, the members making the allegations are warned not to repeat them against an 'innocent' or cause division in the church on pain of being 'disfellowshipped' -- effective lifetime exile.
    'They're told if they don't obey these elders that God will kill them,and how God kills them is that when you're disfellowshipped, you're viewed as being dead,' said Bowen. 'It's like the biblical edict of stoning. Your own mother and father will not acknowledge you in public. Your own children will not speak to you.
    'And they have a choice, they can be silent and retain their family and every friend they've known for the last 40 years, or, if they speak out, they will lose all that overnight.'
    The wall of silence around abuse cases and the stipulation that there must be two witnesses before any action is taken has prevented thousands of prosecutions, according to US police.
    Jack Zeller, a US police officer who dealt with several child abuse cases sees the irony. 'Unfortunately, most kids don't have several witnesses observing them get raped,' he said.
    The same levels of obstruction and unco-operativeness have been encountered by police in the UK tackling allegations of child abuse within the church.Police investigations into allegations of sexual abuse within the Jehovah's Witnesses community in Birmingham were frustrated for a long time by elders in the church.
    Steve Colley, an investigating officer with West Midlands police, was shocked by the determination of elders not to co-operate with his inquiriey into allegations of abuse in a Birmingham congregation.
    'I was surprised,' said Colley. 'They actually said to me unless I could provide two Jehovah's Witnesses who'd actually seen the offence,then as far as they were concerned the offence hadn't taken place.'
    Despite this, each congregation keeps copious records regarding any spiritual infraction or wrongdoing committed within the church. Records of Ian Cousins's abuse of his eldest daughter were lodged but were only obtained by Cousins under data protection legislation. The papers show that the Jehovah's Witnesses in Ayrshire and in the organisation's headquarters knew for three years before she asked them for help that her father was a self- confessed paedophile. Instead of enabling elders to monitor him, the records showed they twice turned a blind eye to his abuse of his daughters.
    'It is a paedophile paradise created by Jehovah's Witnesses,' said Bill Bowen.
    'An abuser can go into any congregation, remain anonymous, have access to more children through activities in the church, and all he has to do is just keep denying it and he will have the confidentiality clause in Watch Tower policy to enable him to continue .'



  • Golf
    Golf

    Nic, no, you convince me especially just who this 'faithful' slave is? It was once believed to be one pseron and now it's a collective group. Guest77

  • GotJesus
    GotJesus

    The watchtower constantly tries to deny Christs diety in full. Why? because Christ is central to most all other religions & for the Watchtower to be the one "true" religion they must do away with the sign of the cross & the cross itself. They have to seperate themselves from the rest of the pack to gain membership above all others. Christ died on a stake!!! Ive been told. Why does it matter? It matters to the Watchtower simply because the rest of Christiandom views the Cross as a central theme to thier salvation & I believe it is mine as well. Thats just me! :) See John 20:25, in the NWT no less..."Unless I see in his hands the print of the NAILS (plural) and stick my finger into the print of the NAILS (plural) and stick my hand into his side, I will certainly not believe. Even Thomas had seen Jesus hanging on the cross & saw he was crucified arms spread one on either side of a CROSS, watching his hands & feet being pounded into the wood. FATHER????? WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME??? It was done for the believer & nonbeliever alike...

    Love to all!!!

    My lord & my God!!!

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    What is the current interpretation of the scarlet colored wild beast of Revelation, the identity of the harlot, and their relationship? In line with that, how is the Watchtowers longstanding relationship with the UN any different than the harlot's?

    My second question run thus: If David was allowed to eat the showbread of the altar to save his and his men's lives; and if Jesus allowed his disciples to grind grain and eat it on the Sabbath; and if Jesus condemned the Pharisees who strained out the gnat of Sabbath keeping but would gulp down the camel of allowing people to suffer - what is the validation of the no blood transfusion rule, especially when it costs the lives of innocent children?

    Third: What reason is there to subscribe to a "greater fulfillment" clause about any of the prophecies in the Bible? Where in the Bible does it say that we should look for a greater fulfillment in our time of the prophecies of Hosea, Isaiah, Jesus, and others?

    Please describe all the important dates in your theology, why they are significant, and where the Biblical proof of such numbers guessing comes in - especially in light of Jesus' direct statement that "no man knows the day or the hour." (Should keep you busy. 1919! 1914! 1935! 1975 (not anymore))

    CZAR

  • avishai
    avishai
    very good idea. and you correctly dismissed the "2 witness" question, because it simply doesn't apply anymore. cases of child abuse are reported to the police, at least where i live. this question could only be combined with the new-light-doctrine, and how it harmed people in the past.

    Nope. They only report as per two witness rule now, whereas before, they usually did'nt report at ALL. But with two witnesses it's ok too report.

    can you name one case where an elder has not reported a case of suspected child molestation to the authorities? What is your evidence for stating that they don't? You made that accusation - you have to defend it!

    I'd like to jump in here................

    Can i give you a case where it was covered up? how 'bout my little brother. I was there when P.O Steve Cuda said "We keep these things quiet"

    The guy went on to molest dozens more kids, including several in the congregation. Look at these threads for more info, then tell me it did'nt happen. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/38146/1.ashx Part 2 http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/8/46670/1.ashx

  • amac
    amac

    How do you know that the Faithful & Discreet Slave is a group of people leading an organization and not just anyone who teaches others about the bible? And how do you know that the scripture referring to the FDS is a prophecy and not simply an example of how their will be good slaves and bad slaves or good people and bad people.

    About the whole child molestation thing...they have changed their policies. It no longer requires 2 witnesses to the same act to take judicial action, they can use 2 seperate accounts in order to take judicial action. For reporting to the authorities they rely on the state law and whether or not it requires it...last time I checked only 13 require it (when this is the case they need only 1 accusation.) So a more pointed question would be why do they need the state law to tell them when to report accusations of child molestation?

  • Happy Guy :)
    Happy Guy :)

    From the looks of this thread you better be well stocked with aspirin nicolau.

  • FairMind
    FairMind

    Ok nicalou; please justify the WTS belonging to the UN as a NGO (Non-Governmental Organization) from 1991 until 2001. Remember now that according to their own standard this makes them guilty of spiritual fornication and unfaithful to God.

    FM

  • bebu
    bebu

    Jesus said that a person who commends himself is not enough of a witness. He produced John the Baptist's testimony to him, his miracles, the Scriptures (a messiah/prophet is expected, etc., etc), and the voice of God which they had heard. Jesus showed that he had witnesses to corroborate with his own.

    What is the biggest, strongest evidence that God has authorized the WT to speak on His behalf? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and we should expect to have witnesses that we can verify. Realize that a great deal of scrutiny is required of this evidence as well.

    bebu

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    Jesus ate with those who had been kicked out of the synagogue (disfellowshipped............according to the insight books). Why could he do that, but we can't?

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