Calling God "Lord"

by Neophulis 8 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Neophulis

  I never realized it before or maybe I'm dissecting this too much, but is the belief in the Holy Trinity the reason why "most" christian religions reference to God as "Lord" under the belief that God/HolySpirit/Jesus are all one and the same. Therefore by speaking about our Lord Jesus Christ, we are also speaking about God himself(under that belief system) which allows us to call onto both at the same time and then simply differentiate Jesus by his name Jesus or by saying 'Lord Jesus'.

  I only know and have studied the JW religion by my own devotion and was not sure if a non-JW christian religion refers to God by a name(regardless of language translation) because I remember reading that God's name is indicated as "Jehovah" in the Holy Bible(King James Translation - i think) and wasn't sure how other religions view the concept of God having a name. Whether it's Yahweh or Jehovah or any other translation.

  I just figured that the common man would visualize any of the other two parts of the Holy Trinity when referencing the 3rd piece so by saying 'Lord' to call upon God, you are also calling upon Jesus because they are both the same.

  I guess I got a little bored at work and started thinking too deeply. Can't do THAT on company time...
• 

  Narkissos

  Hi Neophulis,

  I would put it the other way around.

  Yhwh, the main god of ancient Israel, had a name because he was just one god among many (polytheism). When Israel became officially monotheist (after the 6th-century BC exile) this name became useless and embarrassing. It had to be theologised away (Exodus 3:14ff, "I am who I am"), sacralised away (too holy to be articulated in common use) and substituted (by "Lord", Hebrew adonay, Greek kurios).

  When Christianity came in, it used the ambiguity of the term "Lord" applying to God to link its own hero (Jesus) to the deity (this is obvious in Romans 10 for example). The Trinity doctrine built upon the previous use of "Lord" (among many other things).
• 

  Neophulis

  O I C
• 

  Leolaia

  Christians from NT times have always referred to both Jesus Christ and the Father as "Lord". The Bible used by first-century Christians, the Septuagint, rendered Hebrew Yahweh with kurios "lord," so that all references to Yahweh in the OT became references to the "Lord". Many modern Bible translations continue this, rendering the tetragrammaton with "LORD" in capitals. The King James Version does this as well and uses "Jehovah" only in four instances. Because kurios was used to refer to God in the OT, and because Jesus was kurios, OT passages that refer to God were applied by Paul and other NT writers to Jesus. A good example of this is Romans 10:

  "If you confess with your mouth, ?Jesus is Lord,? and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, ?Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile ? the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, ?Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:9-13).

  This verse plainly applies the scripture in Joel 2:23 to refer to Jesus Christ, even though the "Lord" mentioned in this OT text was Yahweh. Paul says that "If you confess 'Jesus is Lord' you will be saved," and this alludes clearly to Joel 2:23 (LXX) and makes the "Lord" of this OT passage refer to Jesus. The NWT, by inserting the divine name into the NT (arbitrarily without any manuscript evidence), destroys the very simple and clear thought here that Jesus is the "Lord" of the OT:

  "For if you publicly declare that word in your own mouth, that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation. For the Scripture says: "None that rests his faith on him will be disappointed." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for there is the same Lord over all, who is rich to all those calling upon him. For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved" (NWT).

  The exact same application of OT "Jehovah" to Jesus occurs in Acts 2:16-21. There are many, many other cases of scriptures referring to God in the OT that are applied to Jesus -- as both make reference to the "Lord". Compare, for instance, Matthew 3:1-3 with Isaiah 40:3 and ask who John the Baptist was preparing a way for, or Matthew 22:41-46 with Psalm 110:1 which it quotes, or 1 Peter 2:6-8 citing Isaiah 8:13-15 (in which the subject is "Jehovah of armies"), Revelation 6:15-17 citing Isaiah 2:19 (applying what referred to "Jehovah" to the "Lamb"), or Philippians 2:10-11 citing Isaiah 45:23, and so forth.
• 

  zen nudist

  when the jews first made their translation into greek from hebrew, the name superstition thing was already showing as they, at first, kept the name of their god in hebrew letters rather than making it a greek equivlent.

  but to the greeks ignorant of hebrew or jewish superstitions the backwards ]]I]]` looked to them like their letters ][i][i or pi iota pi iota prounced pee pee.

  this no doubt made the jews run red in the face...so they took it out and put Kyrious or lord in its place.... however the term lord was not that different then as it was in king james time,, a title of nobility....it is still used in england as such

  and those who translated the KJV certainly did not think their lords and ladys were gods.
• 

  M.J.

  So "Christendom" can no more be criticized than the 1st century Christians for leaving the divine name out of their translations. Looks like they even wanted it that way.
• 

  Narkissos

  ZN,

  Although the oldest extant manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint do have the Tetragrammaton in ancient Hebrew letters (not the more recent square letters which do look like Greek PIPI, which by the way would not mean "pee pee" in Greek afaik), there is a good case that this was not the practice of the original Septuagint but of a specific (kaige) recension, as Pietersma has shown. Anyway, it is absolutely clear that the Pauline epistles and the NT in general refer to a kurios Greek reading.

  Moreover, the substitution practice of the Greek Septuagint is exactly paralleled by the Hebrew practice of substituting 'adonay (Lord) or 'elohim (God) in public reading, as attested by the later vocalisation of the Masoretic text which owes nothing to Christianity.

  Those two facts are sufficient evidence, I think, that the substitution of Yhwh with "Lord" predates Christianity.
• 

  zen nudist

  Moreover, the substitution practice of the Greek Septuagint is exactly paralleled by the Hebrew practice of substituting 'adonay (Lord) or 'elohim (God) in public reading, as attested by the later vocalisation of the Masoretic text which owes nothing to Christianity.

  Those two facts are sufficient evidence, I think, that the substitution of Yhwh with "Lord" predates Christianity.

  I agree with you, contrary to the JW position, the fact that the divine name was in hebrew characters in even some of the septuigent versions testifies that the people were already not vocalizing it as early as possibily 300bce...when greek influence made havnig a single god with a name more embarrassing.... [according to something someone said somewhere?]

  but my main point is that lord did not refer to god alone then nor when KJV translators used it.... it meant anyone of nobility... as it still does to this day. when Paul was knocked on his ass....er, off his ass....he asked the unknown voice, who are you lord? surely a silly question if lord meant God.
• 

  Narkissos

  when Paul was knocked on his ass....er, off his ass....he asked the unknown voice, who are you lord?

  Well... the "unknown voice" in such a miracle story was not just anybody either -- so I guess "Lord" is also used with some theological intention here.
  

  Btw, this famous story seems to be directly borrowed from the narrative about the divine intervention against (and then in behalf of) persecutor Heliodorus, who was on his way to plunder the temple treasury (2 Maccabees 3:24ff):
  

  But when he arrived at the treasury with his bodyguard, then and there the Sovereign of spirits and of all authority caused so great a manifestation that all who had been so bold as to accompany him were astounded by the power of God, and became faint with terror. For there appeared to them a magnificently caparisoned horse, with a rider of frightening mien; it rushed furiously at Heliodorus and struck at him with its front hoofs. Its rider was seen to have armor and weapons of gold. Two young men also appeared to him, remarkably strong, gloriously beautiful and splendidly dressed, who stood on either side of him and flogged him continuously, inflicting many blows on him. When he suddenly fell to the ground and deep darkness came over him, his men took him up, put him on a stretcher, and carried him away--this man who had just entered the aforesaid treasury with a great retinue and all his bodyguard but was now unable to help himself. They recognized clearly the sovereign power of God.
  While he lay prostrate, speechless because of the divine intervention and deprived of any hope of recovery, they praised the Lord who had acted marvelously for his own place. And the temple, which a little while before was full of fear and disturbance, was filled with joy and gladness, now that the Almighty Lord had appeared. Some of Heliodorus's friends quickly begged Onias to call upon the Most High to grant life to one who was lying quite at his last breath. So the high priest, fearing that the king might get the notion that some foul play had been perpetrated by the Jews with regard to Heliodorus, offered sacrifice for the man's recovery. While the high priest was making an atonement, the same young men appeared again to Heliodorus dressed in the same clothing, and they stood and said, "Be very grateful to the high priest Onias, since for his sake the Lord has granted you your life. And see that you, who have been flogged by heaven, report to all people the majestic power of God." Having said this they vanished.
  Then Heliodorus offered sacrifice to the Lord and made very great vows to the Savior of his life, and having bidden Onias farewell, he marched off with his forces to the king. He bore testimony to all concerning the deeds of the supreme God, which he had seen with his own eyes. When the king asked Heliodorus what sort of person would be suitable to send on another mission to Jerusalem, he replied, "If you have any enemy or plotter against your government, send him there, for you will get him back thoroughly flogged, if he survives at all; for there is certainly some power of God about the place. For he who has his dwelling in heaven watches over that place himself and brings it aid, and he strikes and destroys those who come to do it injury." This was the outcome of the episode of Heliodorus and the protection of the treasury.

  Edited to add: the NRSV translates kurios by "sir" in Matthew 21:30; 27:63; Mark 7:28; Luke 13:8; 14:22; John 4:11,15,19,49; 5:7; 6:34; 8:11; 9:36; 12:21; 20:15; Acts 16:30 (plural); Romans 13:14; Jude 1:5; Revelation 7:14. It applies either to Jesus, or to the apostles, or to characters representing Jesus or God in parable or vision (in which cases a theological double entendre is likely), or to a political authority (Pilate).