Xandria esp. and Shakita, jgnat, Narkissos and others - advice appreciated

by formerout 8 Replies latest social family

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  formerout

  I have followed Mario's tragic story from the beginning. Especially in this last battle he is in I have respected very much all your advice to him, especially Xandria, who seems to have people at her availability with a lot of experience in this field.

  Mario is certainly dealing with it very well. What I liked mostly about all your advice regarding Marina is that you encouraged him to keep control of Marina legally but also let her believe she has freedom to do what she wants right now. God knows from what he has told us about the grandfather especially, they certainly do not have the best long-term interests for her.

  My situation is not nearly as tragic as Mario's but there are some parallels. I was hoping I could get some advice from you guys and others about your thoughts on my situation. Here is one of my topics on it:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/18/81052/1320106/post.ashx#1320106

  One of the things to add to this is that my oldest son, who is ten, has been raised by her mother for the last two-plus years, who is a JW pioneer. My ex-mother-in-law has gone so far as to hurt my four-year-old daughter in the genital area with her knee and brought her to the doctor and told her to tell the doctor that I "pushed her peepee in." Unbelievably when I brought my daughter to The Children's Aid Society regarding that, they determined that I had done nothing of the sort to my daughter and closed the file despite my pleading with them to get the truth from my daughter. (She gave them another story when they interviewed her three days later, that I only did it accidentally. )

  Even though the Judge ordered my son to be weened off the JW religion my ex-mother-in-law has done the opposite and even told him that it's daddy that is trying to stop him from becoming a JW (and all the screwed up teachings that go with that... my ex-wife and I are not JW's... we haven't been for about 8 years).

  Xandria, based on what you have told Mario, it seems like I am best off trying to cut off completely my ex-mother-in-law's involvement with my son. You said:

  I am very disappointed that the therapists are allowing this manipulation to occur.

  I feel the same way about The Children's Aid Society's caseworker's lack of intervention. My son has been manipulated into falsely accusing me of mistreating him, like "grabbing him by the back of the neck". CAS is aware that his "shutting down at school" is the worst case scenario, since it means he cannot even find an "escape" from his situation. However the thing that scares me is that, from my experience with child protection agencies, that if a man tries to get control of the kids he is automatically looked at as being a threat to what is best for the kids (staying with mom). This seems to be Canada's first reaction anyway and I'm worried that going for sole custody could backfire on me.

  If you want me to clarify anything, don't be afraid to ask. What do you all think about the manipulation taht my son is going through? It has to stop. I just don't want my son to have to endure another six months of this shit if I don't convince the Judge this time.

  Thanks for your time,

  Brad
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  Happy Guy :)

  However the thing that scares me is that, from my experience with child protection agencies, that if a man tries to get control of the kids he is automatically looked at as being a threat to what is best for the kids (staying with mom)

  Unfortunately this is true for many in Canada but certainly not for all. As you know FO my kids went through years of abuse and the authorities knew well of it. There seems to be a real fear of removing kids from a mother here in Canada. It's almost as though people would rather see children live with an abusive mother than a stable father.

  FO not everyone sees things this way. You have to keep the faith and be persistant when it comes to sticking up for your kids. Unfortunatley you will run into assholes who think that they know more about your kids after knowing them for 5 minutes than you do simply because you are male. It's kind of like that other thread that someone started about "putting people in boxes" or categories.

  I can assure you FO that when your kids are older they will appreciate your unconditional love and determination.
• 

  formerout

  Happy Guy,

  I appreciate your advice again.

  I'm not sure if you saw (on my other thread) that I spoke to a lawyer on Friday after court. He is going to call my ex's lawyer on Monday. I have no money to retain him but we talked for an hour and he is doing this free so far. We go back on Thursday for a full day in front of the Judge. This lawyer can't represent me on Thursday but if my ex has any sense she will finally be convinced by her lawyer to be reasonable. This new lawyer was shocked at some of the stuff she is doing.

  I'm trying to strategize for Thursday, in case this new lawyer doesn't convince her to do anything reasonable. I want to call the CAS worker on Thursday. She told me that she was going to convince my ex not to move out of town, but she didn't of course. She said, "We (CAS) are going to work really hard with J***** to figure out why she is so angry." I have submitted in my papers that I have every intention to allow J***** the proper access that I am not even getting, so hopefully it can't be twisted to look like I am trying to take the kids from J*****.

  Brad
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  Narkissos

  Formerout,

  Sorry I missed your first thread. Not that I can help much, my only experience being a very negative one -- at least I know what didn't work in that particular case.

  My first "advice" would be: as far as possible, by all means avoid hijacking the children into the struggle. That's what hurts them most, especially when they seem to be eager to take sides. A divorce is often the first contact a child has with tragedy, and one essential element of tragedy is fate: the hero doesn't decide his/her fate. Without fate tragedy would just be unbearable. This requires the courage to handle adult decisions without shifting the responsibility on the children. For instance, whatever has already been decided in court (such as visit rights, no KH, staying in the same school) you probably can have enforced by law, without asking the children what they want. Better this way imho.

  Also, when children are involved one must know where to stop in the battle (that's what is involved in the famous Solomon judgement, but this wouldn't have worked with a completely dumb mother). During the custody procedure I was locked in a boarding school for several years, just a few yards from my mother's home. Those were among the darkest years of my life. I agree with you that this should be avoided.

  About the existing manipulation, this is very hard to cope with, but here again intelligence is the best thing. Arguing over it with the child would just reinforce it. Better, I feel, not to take it too seriously, knowing that this is not really your son/daughter speaking, and build your own relationship with him/her on its own bases.

  I too am waiting to read Xandria's advice. If something else comes to my mind in the discussion I'll tell you.

  Take care, pal.

  Didier
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  formerout

  Narkissos,

  Thanks for the reply. You have a very good way of putting things even when you say you don't have much advice to give.

  For instance, whatever has already been decided in court (such as visit rights, no KH, staying in the same school) you probably can have enforced by law, without asking the children what they want. Better this way imho.

  Unfortunately I have not been able enforce it by law, YET!!! I am asking for a "police enforcement order" to be made because it seems like my ex will not do what's best for the children unless her doing the opposite has strong negative consequences. For example, my oldest son has not come to my house for a weekend visit since before June 22, 2004. He has come for some Wednesday visits (not overnight) and we have had a great time. He has said "I want to come this weekend, dad, but maybe for just one night to start."

  But by the time the weekend comes around he says he hates me and doesn't want to come. Without even saying to her about the fact that I know it is their negative manipulation that has caused his "change of heart", I have pleaded with her to encourage him to come. She doesn't. She thinks I ruined my relationship with him and wants it left like that. Even if that were true, a sensible mother would let her ex fix the "problem, for the sake of her child. (Solomon principle again). So after much pleading I filed a "Notice of Contempt Motion". Rather than adjusting her/her family's behaviour (which is all I REALLY want), they accused me of physically abusing my oldest son.

  I absolutely and completely agree with you and other people's belief that the children should not be in the middle. That's why I left her... she couldn't be a reasonable person in any conversations and would yell at me and throw things at me in front of the children. I keep them as far away from that as possible.

  When they come to me and ask why I took the house from mommy (not reality) I leave mommy's lies out of it and stress that they have a nice place to live at mommy's and they have a nice place at daddy's right? That's what mommy and daddy want for you guys... is to be happy and be safe.

  I think my ex is bi-polar too. There is something imbalanced in her for sure. That's why I am trying to fix things within the Courtroom, not anywhere else. She doesn't necessarily realize how "crazy" she is being. I mean, when we first split up she accused me of everything under the sun. I admitted to being a PART of arguments years ago and this is why we wanted to separate.... irreconcilable differences. For her part, she accepted NO PART whatsover in any disagreement that we ever had in our relationship. that's just delusional.

  Any further advice is still greatly appreciated.

  Brad
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  Xandria

  Formerout:

  It really sounds like you are going to have to build a case, showing the intent of your ex's filings of complaints. Document everything! I cannot stress that enough because you are literally fighting for the lives of your children. She is abusing the system to discredit you. This is something you can use to your advantage, by showing a distinct and damaging pattern. To have it back fire upon her, in court you must prove she cannot see beyond her own personal vendettas against you, that she is allowing harmful interactions, (ie: Your ex-battle-ax-m-in-law and abuses). The proof that these actions are having a serious impact on your children?s mental and emotional health is necessary.

  You have to show patterns and consequences of these patterns on your children?s behaviors, etc. Instead of concentrating on the welfare of her children, she is harming their emotional and mental welfare, by creating a hostile environment between the children and their father.

  Best resources: http://www.fathersrightsinc.com

  http://www.co.bannock.id.us/prosecutor/child_custody_interference.html

  http://www.divorcesource.com/NJ/ARTICLES/jessani11.html

  http://www.ottawadivorce.com/custodyassessments.htm

  http://pcaccanada.tripod.com/

  http://www.horizons.uc.edu/expertadviceMay02/tips22Pedro-Carroll.htm

  http://www.nebpsych.org/content/childcust.html

  http://www.hps-ce.com/pl/pubjoint.htm

  http://www.apa.org/practice/childcustody.html

  http://www.divorce-lawyer-child-support.com/child/psychologists-experience.htm

  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465023622/002-9805045-7572009?v=glance

  (book)

  http://www.canlaw.com/rights/fathers.htm

  http://www.themenscenter.com/National/national06.htm

  http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/2776/godfear.html

  http://www.4therapy.com/consumer/life_topics/article/6802/113/The+Family+and+Mental+Health

  Parent Alienation a must read on many levels: http://www.familycourtvictims.com

  http://www.deltabravo.net/custody/pasarchive.htm

  http://www.rgardner.com/refs/

  http://www.fact.on.ca/Info/info_pas.htm

  http://www.rgardner.com/pages/32.html

  http://www.parentalalienation.com/PASdirectory.htm

  *** http://www.coeffic.demon.co.uk/pas.htm

  http://www.reenasommerassociates.mb.ca/a_parent.html

  http://www.4therapy.com/locator

  Unfortunately in some custody battles, either both or one parent fails to think of the child's point of view, they are watching their parents pit against each other. Even use them by building guilt for ?loving? one parent more, manipulations, etc. It is sad to see a parent do this willfully, regardless of the mental and emotional impact this will have on the child. Especially, since the child learns relationship patterns from their parents and grandparents. There is no easy path to this problem.

  What you are going to have to stress is that this behavior your ex-wife is exhibiting is a danger to the well being of your child. You are going to have to play the game. If a lawyer is too expensive perhaps a mediator can help work out the details. But these things are going to have to be address in legal and defined terms, so they cannot be abused or misused.

  I have seen some cases where there is a contractual parenting agreement. Where every thing and I stress everything is spelled out to the letter. The parent gets two chances to make "mistakes" the third will end up in consequences for failure or breech of the contractual clause. Some times, that is the ONLY way to force a parent to ?play nice? lest they lose visitation for a while or even worse, custody; if it goes too far.

  Children's Aid or CPS here, unfortunately they are over worked and do not always enact when they need to especially when one parent is abusing the system to "revenge" or "get back at" the other parent. They don't want to separate the family anymore than it is. But you must stress to your case worker that the lack of action on their side, is having a toll on your children. If they do not enact, then I would suggest a consultation with a therapist who specializes in divorce issues. Especially with the impacts, these attacks are having on the family dynamics. This will help document your case further, with a professional evaluation and then you could bring it up again in an assertive mediation.

  I hope the resources above, help you find the path that is right for you to move forward in a decisive manner. Prepare yourself and educate yourself on the options. It will make for a stronger parent, case, and help your children pull through this difficult time, with out too much anxiety.

  Regards,

  X.
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  SheilaM

  And you can't keep your children from this person because??????? Hmmmm Grandparents don't usually have many rights at least here in the US. I would make sure my children never saw her again.
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  formerout

  Sheila,

  And you can't keep your children from this person because??????? Hmmmm Grandparents don't usually have many rights at least here in the US. I would make sure my children never saw her again.

  I BEG for someone to give me an answer to this. The reality is that my ex's parents have no rights. My ex has even tried to keep my kids from them many times in our relationship because she KNOWS that they have no rights.

  The sad facts are that mothers (and fathers) can leave their children with whomever they freaking want. It takes a hell of a long time to even convince authorities that these decisions are not altogether wise.

  Sheila,

  The fact is that grandparents have no rights unless their children give it to them. The same children who have tried to prevent these rights will give it over to them to spite their ex. I know you don't intend to leave me exasperated, Sheila, but I REALLY, REALLY wish that your solution was as simple as you wish it to be.

  Honestly, despite realizing that they are unhealthy right now, I wish that they could have a healthy relationship with our kids. My current court process is intended for that sole purpose.

  Brad
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  jgnat

  I am flattered, formerout, that you sought me out for an opinion. I remained silent this time, as there is not much to add. Document the pattern of manipulation and listen carefully to what your children are telling you they want. Keep in mind that some of your children's fickleness may not be a result of manipulation, but simple frustration over the chaotic nature of their lives. Gee, my granddaughter yelled at me that she hated me, after a day of babysitting where she had strained to be "good" all day. Lots of children wish they had one mommy and one daddy and one house. Some would prefer to remain in a less-than ideal living arrangement than to live with insecurity.

  As an aside, children grieve by acting out. Grades may drop, they may start misbehaving in school, and they may have anger problems. It would be great if you could get some subsidized counselling for your children.