Eyebrow2, you asked if anyone would be interested, yes, I woulkd. I read a book by Vivien Kellems titled, "Toil, Taxes and Trouble" and what caught my interest was a rendering of Jesus words at Matt. 22:15-22 as well as in Mark 12:13-17 and Luke 20:20-26. It had to do rendering taxes, note the difference when she quotes from ISV.
Publisher's Preface to the Second Edition
In the NKJ it reads, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."
"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's - NIV
" Give to Caesar what belongs to him. But everything that belongs to God
must be given to God." - NLT
" Give therefore to the emperor the things that the emperor's, and to God
the things that are God's." - NRSV
"Then the Pharisees went and planned how to trap Jesus in conversation,
They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. They said,
"Teacher, we know that you are sincere and that you teach the way of God
truthfully. You don't favor any individual, for you pay no attention to
external appearance. So tell us what you think. Is it lawful to pay
taxes to Caesar or not?"
But Jesus recognized their wickedness and said, "Why are you testing me,
you hypocrites? Show me the coin used for the tax." They brought him a
denarius. Then he asked them, "Whose face and name is this? They said to
him, "Caesars's." So he said to them, "Then give back to Caesar the
things that are Carsar's, and to God the things that are God's."
When they heard this, they were amazed, then they left him and went
away.
`One of the remarkable elements to this story is that Jesus never spoke against paying taxes. He just wanted to see that everyone got his just due - both God and Caesar. And even mnore, the fundamental question as to who owes what and how much - and to whom (or to Whom) it is owed - has been overlooked by most commentators. The reason for this oversight has to do with mistranslation in the text. The problem is with the verbs in Matthew 22:21. Note how the verb is translated as "give back" in the International Standard version in the citation above. But note how some other translations erroneously translate the verb in the previous quotes.
You see, the versions of the Bible above have translated the operative verb as "to render" or "to give." That is to say, the presumption is that Caesar and God are to be "given to" in the same fashion. But only the International Standard version brings forth the marvelously subtle elements of the Greek verb here. The proper word choice here is not "give" but rather "give back." And there is a world of difference.
Jesus was saying that everything belongs to God in the first place. In a very real sense, God is "owed" everything that we have. He is our source. But in the Roman world, Caesar was God. In these passages, to "give back" is the proper translation in regards to obligations to God and to Caesar for the audience to whom Jesus was speaking.
But America is not Rome. And the principles on which America was founded say that our money belongs to us first, as the people who earn it. And all of these rights are "inalienable," meaning that they cannot be taken away by the government. Further, in America the government's ability to govern 'and' to tax is derived from the consent of the governed, i.e. from "We the People." Therefore, if Jesus were speaking these words to America today, He would say, "Then give back to America the things that are Americas, and give back to God the things that are God's."
Note the term "give back" is used in my example in regards to what is owed to God because everything ultimately comes from HIM anyway. But I use the term "give" in regards to America (and the IRS) because the money belongs to "We the People" before it is to be handed over to our government, and that only with our consent. And I believe that consent has to be a "rightly informed" consent by the way.
Vivian Kellems was a rare women for her time. She was highly educated, a business owner of a very successful corporation, highly opinionated and 100% pro-American. Ms. Kellems, through intense research, came to the conclusion that the federal government was unlawfully forcing her to withhold taxes from her employees' paychecks. Once she determined that a wrong was foisted upon unsuspecting Americans, both employer and employee alike,, she decided to fight back - way back in 1948!
When the federal government went after Ms. Kellems, it assumed she was just another female out of her element in the business world and therefore wasy pickings. The feds soon found out the error of their ways. Ms. Kellems fought back with the paper war that comes with standing up for what's right and what the law actually says. She began an all-out, high profile, highly public campaign to take the issue to the people.
Daring the President of the United States of America to make her a paid tax collector, she spared no elected public servant in her quest to see the truth exposed. She dared the government to come after her and they did. The outcome will surprise and delight you. Toil, Taxes and Trouble is a book that must be read by every American in order to understand one of the greatest scams being perpetrated by the United States government against its people.
I read the book back in 2003.
Have you re-read the bible since leaving the Kingdom Hall?
by Eyebrow2 33 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
Golf
-
Carmel
I chucked the bible along with the Borg at an early age. It wasn't until I began investigating the Baha'i Faith that I came back to reading it, but with an entirely different perspective. I had snooped around in the college library in the "religion" section, which exposed me to a lot of other religious literature and scriptures including the Koran and Gita. I personally find it difficult to go back and think of the bible in the typical Christian mindset as it is a confusing bag of garbage if one limits themselves thusly. If it is seen as a document that is "inspired" but incomplete, corrupted by interpretation and infused with edits for personal and political gain, then you can use the worthwhile parts and see the rest as unfortunate human tampering.
Just my oh-so humble opinion
carmel
-
Sunchild
My post-JW Bible experience has been a funny one. When I first got out, I was pretty mad at BibleGod, and I wanted nothing to do with Christianity at all. So, I read just enough of the Bible to convince myself that it was worthless and that the "Christian" God was evil, petty and cruel. Mostly, I read the Old Testament since that's where the worst offenses were.
Then, through a series of rather unexpected events, I became a Christian. Basically, Christ showed up in my life in such a way that I had no choice but seek that path. I started reading the Bible again, focusing on Jesus's life and the New Testament first. I came away with a very different impression of God, Christianity, life... everything. Now, I'm re-reading the whole thing by the light of what I've learned. It turns out it's not so worthless after all.
~Rochelle.
-
ColdRedRain
And actually, I've read the Bible too, without "Study aids". It is truly a book of absurdities, inconsistancies and outright offensiveness. It makes me understand groups lke the LDS and the Islam faith a bit more, since they both base their teachings on that same book that encourages racism, sexism and mutilation.
-
-
Eyebrow2
Okay...I figured out my user issues...and i am reposted my response so people can actually READ IT!! Sorry about that!
Candidlynuts -"and read revelation while reading those left behind books.. (which made about as much sense as the revelation book lol)" Actually, I have read a couple of them, I enjoy them, but sometimes the preaching in it gets to be a bit much. =)
German- I have tried to read LOTR books, but ack...cannot get through them. ( I know that makes me a bad person...but I loved the movies!) Don't know what the Silmarillion is, will have to look it up
ApagaLaLuz- I want to read the Koran next, and some day the book of Mormon..
willyloman- this is what I am finding. I am still just in Exodus, but the NIV bible seems so much less complicated.
startingover- "Try reading the bible without the preconceived idea that it's the word of god." That is EXACTLY how I am reading it. I believe the bible is man's way to explain life and God, not God using man to explain it.
joannadandy-"It was also neat to finally sit down with people of obviously different religious backgrounds - not just JW's repeating the same exact things they all said the last time we read a certain passage." See, that is what I would like to do. Just explore it from different points of view...like you would any other book. You are probably right, face to face is probably best, but right now I don't know if I could find the time.
Golf- sounds like that was an interesting book...I have met quite a few people that agrees with that lady. But never heard anyone use a bible verse to support it. I don't think it would help her case much, since the US has a separation between church and state. But very interesting.
ColdRedRain- "And actually, I've read the Bible too, without "Study aids". It is truly a book of absurdities, inconsistancies and outright offensiveness. It makes me understand groups lke the LDS and the Islam faith a bit more, since they both base their teachings on that same book that encourages racism, sexism and mutilation." True, absolutely. I personally wanted to smack Jacob for having so many wives, and for poor Leah getting the short end of things. Who wants to be the wife that is loved less? But, again, for me, this is reading anciet stories written by men.
Reading the bible for me now is more of a cross between the joy of reading, and a bit of an anthropological (if that isn't a word, it is now) adventure. I am still searching to find some online groups or something to read with. I have yet to find one that is not Christian based. And no offense to the Christians out there, but I want more than just Christians to communicate with. If anyone has any suggestions, they are welcome
-
candidlynuts
eyebrow,
Candidlynuts -"and read revelation while reading those left behind books.. (which made about as much sense as the revelation book lol)" Actually, I have read a couple of them, I enjoy them, but sometimes the preaching in it gets to be a bit much. =)
i read all of them and i did enjoy them. they just didnt make sense when they got deeply into preaching. reading them reminded me how as a jw child i'd daydream about how the " end" would come and there were some paralells to what i used to think. but yeah the repetitive preachiness got old fast . how many times is buck gonna ask if someones broke any of the 10 commandments?
-
Golf
Eyebrow2, it's very interesting reading. You have to read the book as it gives you another perspective. Nothing like viewing an issue from a different angle.
-
Eyebrow2
Candid...yes, that is so true. I like Buck, but come on.....hahah.
Golf, so true...
I have to say, when I was reading Exodus...it never really dawned on me how much the god of Isreal manipulated the Pharaoh in the bible. How he made Pharaoh's heart hard, etc. which of course gave god the excuse for the 10 plagues..yadda, yadda. We were always taught that God had to bring the plagues, not just to show his power, but that the Pharaoh was cooperating.....Really, after reading Exodus and genesis, it makes the gods of the greek/romans not much worse than the OT god.
-
Carmel
Eyebrow2, you might be interested in reading the seminal doctrinal text of the Baha'i Faith, a book called the Kitab I qan, translated, "Book of Certitude" if for no other reason but to see a different way of reading and understanding the Bible and Koran. You can find it on line by Googling it. You'll probably end up on a Baha'i web site that has all the main Baha'i texts.
Just an idea if you are not afraid of "out-of-the-box" thinkin.
carmel