Aud8
Billygoat makes some very good valid points. Take it into consideration.
FEELIN BEROEAN "Just making sure!"
Can anyone help me?
by aud8 37 Replies latest jw experiences
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think41self
Hi Aud8,
Welcome to the board!
I feel for your situation...it is not an easy one. Do you sacrifice relationships with people you love for the sake of your own belief systems and honor? This is a question each must answer themselves.
For many of us, I think we did not just wake up one morning with an answer clearly in our minds. You are probably just learning how to think for yourself, and it takes time to learn to trust your own judgement. If there is no external pressure on you to make up your mind quickly...why would you?
Take some time, read some more, ask more questions...visit outside sources for more info on subjects that concern you...it is your life.
But one thing we CAN assure you: We will be here for you, and offer a listening ear, advice IF it is asked for...but then we will not judge you for whatever your decisions are! Isn't that a wonderful thing?
You are not alone...we are here
Tracy
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Noble07
No one can rightly and scripturally say these are ‘the last days.”
That may be a surprising statement to many professing Christians, because it is such a popular belief that we are living in ‘the last days’. But just take a concordance and look for the phrase "last days" in the Gospels. Jesus never used it, despite Bible topic headings in many translations of chapters like Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. What about the Apocalypse or Revelation which was given to Jesus? (Revelation 1:1) Surely, this most apocalyptic book uses the phrase "last days"? Or, "time of the end"? Is it fair and honest to include the phrase "last days" atop Bible pages as if these words occurred in the main text below? For example one translation begins Matthew chapter 24, "Christ’s presence, last days." On Mark chapter 13: "Signs of the last days given" and "Signs of last days continued." The same happens with Luke chapter 21.
NO ONE CAN CLAIM JESUS EVER USED THE WORDS "LAST DAYS."
But, what about his disciples who wrote later? What “Last Days” Did His Disciples Have in Mind? Peter, Paul and James all use the phrase "last days." But, what "last days" were they talking about?
PETER'S "LAST DAYS" regarded Jerusalem. Peter uses the phrase "last days" in his Pentecostal speech to his Jewish audience. Read Acts 2:16, 17: ‘No this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel (Joel 2:28-32 LXX), "In the last days it will be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh."’ (RSV) Is it fair to state that Peter applies these "last days" to those disciples who were experiencing the spirit’s manifestations and his contemporary audience? [It is noteworthy that the words "last days" do not occur in Joel 2:28-32. Peter gives his quote an inspired paraphrase.]
Peter is to use the phrase "last days" another time in his second epistle: ‘First of all you must understand this, that in the last days (ESCHATOU TON HEMERON) scoffers will come.’ (2 Peter 3:3 RSV) Some are tempted to apply this to some "generation" long after Peter’s time, right up to our own period at the beginning of the 3rd Millennium. How can we know to what "last days" Peter was warning about? The disciple Jude answers this for us because he actually quotes Peter and applies it to his own times.
Note Jude’s words: ‘But you, beloved, must remember the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; for they said to you, "In the last time there will be scoffers."’ (Jude 17, 18 RSV) Does it seem fair to say Jude has Peter’s words in mind? Jude, like Peter, applies the phrase "last days" to the approaching end of Jerusalem’s Temple Age, just as the Nazarene foretold in Matthew 24:4-20 and Luke 21:7-24.
PAUL'S "LAST DAYS". Among the most famous occurrences of the phrase "last days" is the one used at 2 Timothy 3:1, ‘You (Timothy) must understand this, that in the last days (ESCHATAIS HEMERAIS) distressing times will come.’ (RSV) Some translations omit the singular "you" in this verse somewhat obscuring the fact that Paul has Timothy in mind. A reading of the whole context from 2 Timothy 2:14 to 3:9 would seem to confirm Paul’s warning that the "last days" were those upon Timothy and his "generation" who would witness the end of Jerusalem’s Temple Age. How can we be sure of this?
Paul (if he be the writer of Hebrews) uses a phrase highly similar to "last days" in Hebrews 1:2: ‘But in these last days (ESCHATOU TON HEMERON) God has spoken to us by a Son.’ (RSV) Is it misinterpreting matters to say Paul calls his contemporary times "last days"?
THE "LAST DAYS" OF THE DISCIPLE JAMES. James uses the phrase "last days" also: ‘You have laid up treasure for the last days (ESCHATAIS HEMERAIS).’ (James 5:3 RSV) Is it fair to say James has those rich Christians of his own day in mind as the "end" of Jerusalem draws closer?
All of these rare occurrences of the phrase "last days" all deal with the end of Jerusalem’s Temple Age just as Jesus Christ foretold. (Mark 13:5-23)
A few students and commentators believe "the last days" began in the first century and continue down to our own time. Was there an "end" to those "last days" upon that Jewish generation with its Temple in Jerusalem? This subject introduces another word: "consummation" or "conclusion."
In Matthew 24:3 when the disciples asked about Jesus' prediction of the Temple’s desolation they use the Greek word (possibly from Matthew’s own translation of the Hebrew) synteleias. This word in Greek is translated by Jerome in his Fourth Century Vulgate as consummatis for the word means "with + end" or "ending together"; that is, a conclusion or consummation. This word is possibly borrowed from Daniel 9:26, 27 ‘And after the sixty-two weeks, the Christ shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him; and He shall destroy the city and the sanctuary ... and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed, he shall appoint the city to desolations. ... and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end (SYNTELEIAS) of the time an end (SYNTELEIA) shall be put to the desolation.’ (LXX) This was the prophecy from which Jesus drew his own words at Matthew 24:15. The synteleia the disciples had in mind was "the end" of Jerusalem’s Temple. Would this not indicate "the last days" on that Jewish generation with its sacred Temple had an end, conclusion, or consummation? Those particular "last days" did not continue on for many centuries more. (Matthew 28:20)
Paul uses SYNTELEIA himself when discussing the "last days" upon the Jewish Temple Age. Note Hebrews 9:26, ‘But as it is (Christ) has appeared once for all at the end (SYNTELEIA) of the age.’ This later phrase "the end of the age" is exactly the same of the disciples’ question at Matthew 24:3. Does this not prove Paul believed, in fulfillment of Daniel 9:26, 27, and in agreement with the Nazarene’s apostles, that there was then, in his own time, "the last days" to culminate in a "conclusion" upon the Jewish Temple Age? Would this limit any Christian teachers today from predicting the last days and "the time is at hand"?
“The Time is at Hand?”Most have overlooked the Nazarene’s warning immediately after the disciples asked their question about the SYNTELEIA, particularly the way it is worded in Luke 21:8:
‘BEWARE THAT YOU ARE NOT LED ASTRAY; FOR MANY WILL COME IN MY NAME, AND SAY ... "THE TIME IS AT HAND!" DO NOT JOIN THEM!'(RSV, BY, NJB)
How much clearer would our Lord have to make it? If any who claim his authority, asserting they are "the Anointed" (Mark 13:22) and prophesy, "The Time Is At Hand!" they are not to be followed or believed. Such a "presumptuous" prophet need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22)
When Will We Know We are in the “Last Days”? Or does this mean there will never be any "last days"? Not if we judge the Apocalypse correctly. An "end" will come following the Return of Christ. The Books of Daniel and Revelation foretell a period of three and a half years of Great Oppression ('Great Tribulation' in many renderings) on the Saints just prior to the parousia of Christ. Jesus gives the single "sign" which will mark the imminence (within hours) of his parousia and this will be seen by the Saints and all the earth at the same time. The Nazarene predicts: ‘Following (the Great Oppression) . .. . the Sign of the Son of Man will become visible in the sky and all the tribes of earth will mourn as they see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of the atmosphere.’ (Matthew 24:29, 30 NSR) The parousia follows the Great Oppression.
When that future "generation" witnesses celestial phenomenon, the Sign of the Son of man, and the visible Return of Messiah, then we will know our "redemption is drawing near." (Luke 21:28 RSV) Only then will Nazarene Saints be able to say these are "the last days" and "the time is at hand."
Who is authorized to say: “The End has come”?
Only after the Saints are raised and 'raptured' to the Celestial Throne Room (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; Revelation 11:12; 15:2) will THE SEVENTH ANGEL rightly declare: "THE END HAS COME!" (Revelation 16:17 PME)
Robert
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peaceloveharmony
aud8
welcome to the board you've gotten some great advice so far. i just wanted to let you know, i know what you are going thru. when i da'd 9 years ago, i was so afraid of being alone, and very sad about the strained relationship with my parents and siblings. but things eventually settled down, life went on...as it will with you. the key is to learn as much as you can. really start to think for yourself. investigate, read, search for your own truth. that is what helped me the most, just gaining knowledge and questioning everything i had known growing up. we are here for you. you can vent, laugh, cry, shout out for joy here
good luck with everything aud8.
love
harmony"If God has spoken, why is the world not convinced?"
..........Percy Bysshe Shelley, English poet (1792-1822) -
wondering alot
You may want to just stop going to the meetings. Don't cause a stir. Simply say if anyone asks that you have some difference of opinion. After some attempts, they will leave you alone. Yet you are not disfellowshipped or disassociated and your true JW friends will not be pressured into not being able to visit with you.
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Simon
aud8, from my own experience I can identify with the anxiety of leaving. Lots of thoughts along the lines of "but what if it IS right?" etc... Even if, like me, you have done tons of research on lots of topics and you KNOW that it is wrong it is still worrying leaving because of the deep indoctrination that we unknowingly have gone through for many years (esp. if you have been brought up in it and know nothing else).
Yes, it is hard leaving friends but many of the 'friends' really just turn out to be aquaintances and nothing more. The friends that we have made since we left have been much nicer I have found and I feel that they are a lot more genuine than some that we left behind. Not all, but some.
The bottom line is that we are happier now that we EVER were and have a much better life, better prospects, happier kids etc... than we would ever have had if we stayed. I pity those that do.
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Simon
I forgot one other thing - I would not disassociate myself if I were you however much you may want to at the moment. This is their rule which makes things convenient for them and may cut you off from some of your friends. Try to just leave if you can or at least think about the da thing for a month or two first - you may feel differently about it then.
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Daisymay
Wondering alot and Simon have great points - disassociating yourself is making it easier for the org. It helps them validad that there is something wrong with your departure. If you are still considering leaving the org. - stop attending mtg.s and do some research on your own - if you still think JW's are the way to go - no harm done.
You create your own reality!
daisymay -
outnfree
Aud8,
Ah, the pressure! Oh, the pain and worry!
But, tell us, please -- who is putting pressure on you to disassociate yourself? Is it YOU? If so, there is no rush. If you are not completely comfortable with your choice, you should not make that move right now.
I DA'd myself four months ago this weekend. I sorely, sorely miss my dear friend who is still inside. If I had it to do over, I think I'd FADE, fade, fade... so that my friend and I could at least still be communicating on every level other than spiritual.
The anxiety that you feel about whether or not it could all be true?
Normal. But misplaced. You will come to know that if you do as many suggested and research, research, research, until you can still that angst in your quivering heart.In fact, I recommend taking a deep breath, stepping back, and holding off. Consider making some "worldly" friends before making the break.
There are many community organizations out there where you could still be meeting altruistic people who enjoy helping others but with no religious connotation. You will then begin to feel more comfortable in your skin and not so fearful of the future without the [false] security the Witnesses offer.We will help you all we can no matter what you decide. We are your shoulders to lean on. Do not fret.
outnfree
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troubled
Just a thought for you,
I confess, I have not read the responses of others, but will do so in an attempt to get a broader perspective. But having seen your question and realizing the significance of it, I must say this:
If you are scared and unsure about the effects of disassociating, perhaps you aren't ready to do so. I myself have doubts and concerns, which I've only VERY RECENTLY begun to address. The way I've approached it is this way: I didn't come into the Truth quickly; neither will I leave in a hurry.
Have you given adequate consideration to the reasons for disassociating? Or are you still unsure what to do? (I.e., like me, do you feel it's God's organization, but realize there are matters difficult to reconcile?)
Assuming Armageddon doesn't come tomorrow, next week, next month, etc., you have some time to think about things. No need for a snap decision.
I'm not saying "stay" or "go." I myself have my own struggles, issues, etc., and I don't know where they will lead me. I'm only saying weigh both sides of the issue. Give deep and prayerful thought to this. And don't feel in a major hurry to make a decision. Maybe you could give as much time to deciding whether or not to leave as you gave to studying with the Witnesses originally (deciding to come into the organization). I have no magic answers. Just my own human idea/opinion.
I know it's hard to wait and/or be up in the air. I know it's hard not to have answers or know just what to do. But with patience, maybe the answers will become clearer. And when you are really READY to make a decision, one way or the other, you will know what to do and not be quite so afraid and scared.