JW's and records

by frozen one 12 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • frozen one
    frozen one

    This is a bit of an expansion on the above thread...

    If memory serves (which is questionable), it seems that I read or heard that if a witness had employment which made them privy to files at work and if they saw something in the files that may be evidence of "wrong doing" that they were obligated to report the information to the elders. For example, if a dub worked at a video store and saw that another witness had been renting R rated movies or (gasp) porn, the elders needed to know this. Or maybe a witness worked at a hospital and had access to medical files, the elders would need to know if anyone had been treated for VD, had a forbidden blood treatment, or if a sister had an abortion. Does anyone else recall this practice and if so does anyone know of an incident actually taking place?

  • dh
    dh

    I don't know of any incidents first hand, but I am pretty sure it goes on. I am sure I have read something about it on JWD some time ago. I think it was in the context of JW's not being as honest as they make out, and that they would break the law or any confidentiality agreement if the society (or even elders) say so.

  • Why Georgia
    Why Georgia

    When I had my son 5 years ago one of the Elders' wives worked at the hospital as a nurse in ICU and another sister worked in Radiology. They were constantly going into the computers and records room and reading about people in the hall's illnesses and treatments.

    The doctors were considering a blood transfusion for me because I had lost so much blood while giving birth and suddenly the elders' showed up at the hospital to council my husband and some of the stronger sisters showed up to council me.

    WE DID NOT CALL THEM OR ANY OTHER WITNESSES....SO HOW DID THEY KNOW?

    My mother was there with me and told them to get the F-ck out or she would sue the hospital for breaching my confidentiality rights.

    I am still very angry about this because after the Jehovahs Witnesses showed up I was treated like a wierdo by the maternity nurses and I had to keep telling them I am not a Jehovahs Witness and I don't believe what they do. But it didn't matter, the damage was done by association.

  • chrissee
    chrissee

    I remember hearing a story about a sis who worked in a ob/gyn office and another young sis was in for a check up. the sis who worked there went to the elders because she read in the file that the young sis was pregnant. THe young sis was unmarried. Don't remember the outcome, but I remember my mom agreeing with how the sis who worked at the office had done the right thing. I was stunned! I would think that is against the law! The doctor/patient confidentiality clause. Guess it doesn't apply to JW's.

  • Kimmee
    Kimmee

    I remember the rule being that if you see another JW doing wrong or involved in something that is unchristian you are REQUIRED to report it to the elders. If not, you are as guilty as the person involved in the wrongdoing because you know about it.

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    Here's the key article on the topic:

    ***

    w87 9/1 pp. 12-15 "A Time to Speak"?When? ***

    "A

    Time to Speak"?When?

    MARY works as a medical assistant at a hospital. One requirement she has to abide by in her work is confidentiality. She must keep documents and information pertaining to her work from going to unauthorized persons. Law codes in her state also regulate the disclosure of confidential information on patients.

    One day Mary faced a dilemma. In processing medical records, she came upon information indicating that a patient, a fellow Christian, had submitted to an abortion. Did she have a Scriptural responsibility to expose this information to elders in the congregation, even though it might lead to her losing her job, to her being sued, or to her employer?s having legal problems? Or would Proverbs 11:13 justify keeping the matter concealed? This reads: "The one walking about as a slanderer is uncovering confidential talk, but the one faithful in spirit is covering over a matter."?Compare Proverbs 25:9, 10.

    Situations like this are faced by Jehovah?s Witnesses from time to time. Like Mary, they become acutely aware of what King Solomon observed: "For everything there is an appointed time, even a time for every affair under the heavens: . . . a time to keep quiet and a time to speak." (Ecclesiastes 3:1, 7) Was this the time for Mary to keep quiet, or was it the time to speak about what she had learned?

    Circumstances can vary greatly. Hence, it would be impossible to set forth a standard procedure to be followed in every case, as if everyone should handle matters the way Mary did. Indeed, each Christian, if ever faced with a situation of this nature, must be prepared to weigh all the factors involved and reach a decision that takes into consideration Bible principles as well as any legal implications and that will leave him or her with a clear conscience before Jehovah. (1 Timothy 1:5, 19) When sins are minor and due to human imperfection, the principle applies: "Love covers a multitude of sins." (1 Peter 4:8) But when there seems to be serious wrongdoing, should a loyal Christian out of love of God and his fellow Christian reveal what he knows so that the apparent sinner can receive help and the congregation?s purity be preserved?

    Applying

    Bible Principles

    What are some basic Bible principles that apply? First, anyone committing serious wrongdoing should not try to conceal it. "He that is covering over his transgressions will not succeed, but he that is confessing and leaving them will be shown mercy." (Proverbs 28:13) Nothing escapes the notice of Jehovah. Hidden transgressions must eventually be accounted for. (Proverbs 15:3; 1 Timothy 5:24, 25) At times Jehovah brings concealed wrongdoing to the attention of a member of the congregation that this might be given proper attention.?Joshua 7:1-26.

    Another Bible guideline appears at Leviticus 5:1: "Now in case a soul sins in that he has heard public cursing and he is a witness or he has seen it or has come to know of it, if he does not report it, then he must answer for his error." This "public cursing" was not profanity or blasphemy. Rather, it often occurred when someone who had been wronged demanded that any potential witnesses help him to get justice, while calling down curses?likely from Jehovah?on the one, perhaps not yet identified, who had wronged him. It was a form of putting others under oath. Any witnesses of the wrong would know who had suffered an injustice and would have a responsibility to come forward to establish guilt. Otherwise, they would have to ?answer for their error? before Jehovah.

    This command from the Highest Level of authority in the universe put the responsibility upon each Israelite to report to the judges any serious wrongdoing that he observed so that the matter might be handled. While Christians are not strictly under the Mosaic Law, its principles still apply in the Christian congregation. Hence, there may be times when a Christian is obligated to bring a matter to the attention of the elders. True, it is illegal in many countries to disclose to unauthorized ones what is found in private records. But if a Christian feels, after prayerful consideration, that he is facing a situation where the law of God required him to report what he knew despite the demands of lesser authorities, then that is a responsibility he accepts before Jehovah. There are times when a Christian "must obey God as ruler rather than men."?Acts 5:29.

    While oaths or solemn promises should never be taken lightly, there may be times when promises required by men are in conflict with the requirement that we render exclusive devotion to our God. When someone commits a serious sin, he, in effect, comes under a ?public curse? from the One wronged, Jehovah God. (Deuteronomy 27:26; Proverbs 3:33) All who become part of the Christian congregation put themselves under "oath" to keep the congregation clean, both by what they do personally and by the way they help others to remain clean.

    Personal

    Responsibility

    These are some of the Bible principles Mary likely considered in making her personal decision. Wisdom dictated that she should not act quickly, without weighing matters very carefully. The Bible counsels: "Do not become a witness against your fellowman without grounds. Then you would have to be foolish with your lips." (Proverbs 24:28) To establish a matter conclusively, the testimony of at least two eyewitnesses is needed. (Deuteronomy 19:15) If Mary had seen only a brief mention of abortion, she might have decided conscientiously that the evidence of any guilt was so inconclusive that she should not proceed further. There could have been a mistake in billing, or in some other way the records may not have properly reflected the situation.

    In this instance, however, Mary had some other significant information. For example, she knew that the sister had paid the bill, apparently acknowledging that she had received the service specified. Also, she knew personally that the sister was single, thus raising the possibility of fornication. Mary felt a desire lovingly to help one who may have erred and to protect the cleanness of Jehovah?s organization, remembering Proverbs 14:25: "A true witness is delivering souls, but a deceitful one launches forth mere lies."

    Mary was somewhat apprehensive about the legal aspects but felt that in this situation Bible principles should carry more weight than the requirement that she protect the privacy of the medical records. Surely the sister would not want to become resentful and try to retaliate by making trouble for her, she reasoned. So when Mary analyzed all the facts available to her, she decided conscientiously that this was a time to "speak," not to "keep quiet."

    Now Mary faced an additional question: To whom should she speak, and how could she do so discreetly? She could go directly to the elders, but she decided to go first privately to the sister. This was a loving approach. Mary reasoned that this one under some suspicion might welcome the opportunity to clarify matters or, if guilty, confirm the suspicion. If the sister had already spoken to the elders about the matter, likely she would say so, and Mary would not need to pursue matters further. Mary reasoned that if the sister had submitted to an abortion and had not confessed to this serious transgression of God?s law, she would encourage her to do this. Then the elders could help her in accord with James 5:13-20. Happily, this is how matters worked out. Mary found that the sister had submitted to an abortion under much pressure and because of being spiritually weak. Shame and fear had moved her to conceal her sin, but she was glad to get help from the elders toward spiritual recovery.

    If Mary had reported first to the body of elders, they would have been faced with a similar decision. How would they handle confidential information coming into their possession? They would have had to make a decision based on what they felt Jehovah and his Word required of them as shepherds of the flock. If the report involved a baptized Christian who was actively associated with the congregation, they would have had to weigh the evidence as did Mary in determining if they should proceed further. If they decided that there was a strong possibility that a condition of "leaven" existed in the congregation, they might have chosen to assign a judicial committee to look into the matter. (Galatians 5:9, 10) If the one under suspicion had, in effect, resigned from being a member, not having attended any meetings for some time and not identifying herself as one of Jehovah?s Witnesses, they might choose to let the matter rest until such time as she did begin to identify herself again as a Witness.

    Thinking

    Ahead

    Employers have a right to expect that their Christian employees will ?exhibit good fidelity to the full,? including observing rules on confidentiality. (Titus 2:9, 10) If an oath is taken, it should not be taken lightly. An oath makes a promise more solemn and binding. (Psalm 24:4) And where the law reinforces a requirement on confidentiality, the matter becomes still more serious. Hence, before a Christian takes an oath or puts himself under a confidentiality restriction, whether in connection with employment or otherwise, it would be wise to determine to the extent possible what problems this may produce because of any conflict with Bible requirements. How will one handle matters if a brother or a sister becomes a client? Usually such jobs as working with doctors, hospitals, courts, and lawyers are the type of employment in which a problem could develop. We cannot ignore Caesar?s law or the seriousness of an oath, but Jehovah?s law is supreme.

    Anticipating the problem, some brothers who are lawyers, doctors, accountants, and so forth, have prepared guidelines in writing and have asked brothers who may consult them to read these over before revealing anything confidential. Thus an understanding is required in advance that if serious wrongdoing comes to light, the wrongdoer would be encouraged to go to the elders in his congregation about the matter. It would be understood that if he did not do so, the counselor would feel an obligation to go to the elders himself.

    There may be occasions when a faithful servant of God is motivated by his personal convictions, based on his knowledge of God?s Word, to strain or even breach the requirements of confidentiality because of the superior demands of divine law. Courage and discretion would be needed. The objective would not be to spy on another?s freedom but to help erring ones and to keep the Christian congregation clean. Minor transgressions due to sin should be overlooked. Here, "love covers a multitude of sins," and we should forgive "up to seventy-seven times." (Matthew 18:21, 22) This is the "time to keep quiet." But when there is an attempt to conceal major sins, this may be the "time to speak."

    [Footnotes]

    Mary is a hypothetical person facing a situation that some Christians have faced. The way she handles the situation represents how some have applied Bible principles in similar circumstances.

    In their Commentary on the Old Testament, Keil and Delitzsch state that a person would be guilty of error or sin if he "knew of another?s crime, whether he had seen it, or had come to the certain knowledge of it in any other way, and was therefore qualified to appear in court as a witness for the conviction of the criminal, neglected to do so, and did not state what he had seen or learned, when he heard the solemn adjuration of the judge at the public investigation of the crime, by which all persons present, who knew anything of the matter, were urged to come forward as witnesses."

    [Picture on page 15]

    It is the right and loving course to encourage an erring Witness to speak with the elders, confident that they will handle the problem in a kind and understanding way

  • Voyager
    Voyager

    I also noticed from that same article posted above:

    ************************************************************************************************

    This command from the Highest Level of authority in the universe put the responsibility upon each Israelite to report to the judges any serious wrongdoing that he observed so that the matter might be handled. While Christians are not strictly under the Mosaic Law, its principles still apply in the Christian congregation. Hence, there may be times when a Christian is obligated to bring a matter to the attention of the elders. True, it is illegal in many countries to disclose to unauthorized ones what is found in private records. But if a Christian feels, after prayerful consideration, that he is facing a situation where the law of God required him to report what he knew despite the demands of lesser authorities, then that is a responsibility he accepts before Jehovah. There are times when a Christian "must obey God as ruler rather than men."?Acts 5:29.

  • Bumble Bee
    Bumble Bee
    I remember the rule being that if you see another JW doing wrong or involved in something that is unchristian you are REQUIRED to report it to the elders. If not, you are as guilty as the person involved in the wrongdoing because you know about it.

    Kimmee, You don't know how much grief this prinicple cause me growing up. My father, who was baptized, but "inactive" was a closet smoker. I knew about it from about 11/12 years old. Everytime I heard this at a meeting I would be so wracked with guilt. I could not tell on my father, he'd be df'd (he already had been once for this problem in the early '70's). It was not an easy thing to keep hearing this! BB

  • lurk
    lurk

    Leviticus 5:1: on;ly shows that if there is a victim that is suffering for some injustice and you are a witness to that in justice that you come forward.in other words if you witnessed it you may be party to the crime or an onlooker who can prove a person innocent ,this takes care of victims of crime and possible witness who can prove someones innocence or guilt.
    its got nothing to do with spying on ppl whose private medical buissness THAT YOU ARE NOT A WITNESS TO and which you gave you word when you took the job not to do. so whats your word worth? wouldnt you be proving to the world you are untrustworthy and will tell lies from the day you are employed. what happend to thou shalt not bare false witness when you sign up for the job?because you must know before you sign the confidentialy agreement that you will tell if you see somthing on a JW

    i hope hospitals are aware that they cannot trust the word of a jehovahs witness empoyee

    to here bro's and sis's talk about how very one knws they are the most trust worthy employees.

    the article makes sure memebers know they are expected to tell yet words it so they cant be
    accused of anything in court.

    do lawyers write the WT & wakes nowaday?
    what does a lawyer make of this? are there any lawyers here?

    GGGGRRRRRRRRRR

    im just getting the seriousness of this.

    so if a JW works in book shop they can monitor the books yo buy and report any Raymond Franz books being ordered by jw's .......ugh this makes me sick

    this is like nazi germany

    lurk is leaving to puke in the sink

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    Yes this is true - so if in hospital can report those that have had a blood transfusion - so much for privacy - STINKY, SHITTY RELIGION CULT

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