Adam and Eve

by Kristen 50 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    Dear waiting:
    I saved my response to you for last because the points you bring out are the most difficult for me, personally, to deal with. I have no answers, to coin a phrase: “Hell, I don’t even know all the questions!” I only have thoughts and ideas on the these things based on personal (and thus very limited) experience with life and a modest acquaintance with the Bible. I can’t argue my point because I may not even have one. I can, however, give some reasoning on why I have arrived at those conclusions at this particular time.
    Ge 3:22 is one of those ‘profound’ scriptures I mentioned earlier. It really is fascinating. You bring out some good points,

    Just sneak to the tree, eat - and presto! you can live forever (sounds like a book, huh?) again, while still being a disobedient sinner.

    Maybe the ‘tree of life’ was not like the ‘tree of knowledge of good and bad’ in that one bite is all it took. Perhaps the ‘tree of life’ was something that had to be partaken of on a regular basis, a constant reminder that man does not possess inherent immortality, that his very existence has been, is, and always will be, dependent upon God. Maybe it was very much like the manna in the wilderness, good for one day only (with the exception of the Sabbath).

    Even though God said that A&E would die if they ate from the tree of knowledge, if they could eat from that tree and then run to the tree of life - they could, as sinners, live forever? Wouldn't that thwart God's purpose?

    His taking very definite measures (cherubs, flaming swords) showed that while that provision for eternal life (the tree) remained, they were now prevented from partaking of it. Cruel punishment? Maybe not. Perhaps it remained as a hope that access to it would one day be granted again. God did not uproot the tree, he just barred access to it. All of this, even if literal, is also very symbolic I’m sure, part of a puzzle of unknowable form and of which we have not all the pieces.

    And btw, why wouldn't Satan tell Eve of this trick to maneuver around God's law?

    Of course if the situation I mentioned above was the case, it would have done him no good to tell them of that tree inasmuch it would only preserve them alive UNTIL God barred access to it. There is also this possibility. Perhaps for some reason connected with God’s purpose for the garden, God could not remove the tree of life. A stipulation from the beginning omitted from the Genesis account. (Hey, I know this is flimsy!) That would explain why the cherubs guarded the tree instead of God removing it entirely. Satan could very well have reasoned that inasmuch as removal of the ‘tree of life’ was not possible, that the human pair could eat of the ‘other’ tree and still have access to the ‘tree of life’ and therefore God would HAVE to allow them to keep living. Maybe Satan really believed that the couple would not die. Then again maybe Satan was just as mean as he is portrayed to be and simply lied to Eve and took some form of perverse pleasure at her and her husband’s banishment and subsequent demise. (I’m shaking my head) I don’t know.
    THE TALE OF FIVE OFFICERS
    I’d never read that before. Thank you for providing the link.

    If you are suggesting that this world, and all it's problems, were set up by God, so we could be tested and proved through our sufferings, then which of these officers would picture God?

    If God is the creator and is almighty then EVERYTHING in this world exists either by his express will or by his permission. In either case, he can be said to be responsible for it. I see no way around that. I believe that God created this material universe at a great cost to Himself, a cost perhaps much greater than we shall ever truly appreciate. In order for free will (freedom) to exist it would have to do so without direct interference from him. That means allowing you the choice. The story of the policemen does not accurately illustrate the situation with God. A small child is in no position to pass judgments on the actions and decisions of its parents. We are in a comparable position with God. When I was a child there were many times that I was disciplined and in each and every instance I thought my parents unfair and accused them (to myself) of not understanding. I was wrong. The pain they inflicted upon me was nothing compared to what they were saving me from. Who knows just how deep evil goes? Who knows just how vast the dark side is? Who is there among us that knows these things. As much horror and pain as has been inflicted on humankind who is there among us that can say with certainty that there are not greater horrors and pain than that which we have suffered? Who knows what lies ahead for humankind? Who can say authoritatively that the sufferings that are being endured today are not what will protect us from far greater and longer lasting sufferings later on?
    I don’t like the pain and the sorrow and the anguish. I have seen a lot of the people I loved die and it hurts terribly. I will see even more and it will hurt even more. One day I may see my own end approach and I will feel that cold dread. I don’t like it. But if I’ve learned anything at all it’s that there is a lot I will never know, a lot I can never know. Why do I believe that God will take care of us in the end since there is no way of knowing for sure? I don’t care for the alternative.

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    Dear Seven:

    If you can believe that God can only guess about free will what makes you think he didn't guess wrong and underestimate this dark mirror image of himself that he created?

    When it comes to what you will do, God must stay out of the way in order for you to exercise your options. It’s not a question of under or overestimation but simply of what you will do in a given situation. He knows your limitations and inclinations and disposition. Even a human that is close to you would know that. Satan is finite and God is infinite so there can be no underestimation on God’s part here. If it was God’s will from the beginning that we undergo this suffering then that throws a completely different light on the devil now, doesn’t it?

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • Zep
    Zep

    Frenchy,

    Here’s a thought that I have entertained from time to time. Tell me what you think of it. God wants us to love him based on what he has revealed about himself. Even when God does things that are seemingly ungodly and cruel he wants us to trust him explicitly. And now for an understatement: Even though that is a very difficult thing to do. Complete trust in God even in things that we cannot possibly understand as being from God, will humble us and while we anguish in our pain and sorrow we will know that God is crying with us. If I knew that God was crying with me in my sorrow there is nothing that I could not bear. I must somehow attain that caliber of faith and it cannot be had without the pain and suffering

    Well, Evil & suffering is a big Problem.The 5 officers raises some good points.But i still dont discount that God may be justified in some way, that their is a reason for the suffering in the world.I reserve judgment on God moreless....but man, when you see some things in this world, you got to wonder!.As to your point about a child not being able to judge a parent....maybe?.I dont think Waiting would agree with that statement though, somehow!.But eitherway, i do question God... i just dont want to judge him or deny his existence.
    How would Satan think he could be God.I see it like this...God creates a being in his image capable of freewill (a mirror image of himself,,Godlike).I think Satan (if he exists) has it in mind to defeat God simple by using his freewill that God has endowed him with.He doesn't think he can beat God physically...like dooking it out...but by simply exercising his freewill in opposition to God, by being simply recalcitrant.Like being a cog in a clock simply refusing to work just because it can simply refuse.Satan may be Hoping that other Angels etc follow...this would 'defeat god'...and screw up his creation.Its like in the Film 'fight club'..where there is this scene in which the guys are driving along the highway and the driver decides to take his hands off the wheel and let the car go and let it crash...I mean, who would do it?...but its a possibility owing to the fact we have freewill(whatever that really is).Thats how i see Satan...he has decided to commit a suicidal act and in doing so he sees a way of defeating Gods plan!.

    On the reason for Evil and suffering again...you might like this story Frenchy, this is the only way i can see things.I think it sums things up nicely.

    From the 18th book of the Koran: Moses meets Khidr, the first Angel of God, in the desert.They wander along together, and Khidr expresses his fear that moses will not be able to witness his deeds without indignation.If Moses cannot bear with him and trust him, Khidr will have to leave.Presently Khidr scuttles the fishing boat of some poor villagers.Then, before Moses eyes, he kills a handsome young man, and finally he restores the fallen wall of a city of unbelievers.Moses cannot help expressing his indignation, and so Khidr has to leave him.Before the departure, however, he explains his reasons for his actions:By scuttling the boat he actually saved it for its owners because pirates were on their way to steal it.As it is, the fishermen can salvage it.The handsome young man was on his way to commit a crime, and by killing him Khidr saved his pious parents from infamy.By restoring the wall, two pious young men were saved from ruin because their treasure was buried under it.Moses, who had been so morally indignant, saw now too late that his judgment had been too hasty.Khidr's actions had seemed totally evil, but in fact they were not.

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hello Frenchy,

    Thanks for responding to my post, I did think you side stepped me. Rather wounded me - but then I made coffee - and I was ok.

    The Tale of the Five Officers really made me stop for a while. I understand what you're saying, but isn't that somewhat like the officer who was so smart - like an encyclopedia? His ways were so above the average person - there was no need to explain them. But he had his reasons, they were just too deep for us, so no reason to try to explain them to us.

    We just have to trust........

    Why?

    I think there's a comfort zone in humans that have the need to trust, as the Society says, the need to worship. Whether a stick, stone, or Almighty God.

    But a need to trust, a need to worship - doesn't make it so. It just means there's a need. Not necessarily a fulfillment. People live their entire lives with unfulfilled needs.

    You mention that your parents punished you, perhaps saving you from worse pain. That is a natural thought, but you don't know if it's an actual true thought. My father punished me too, he didn't save me though. He just cruelly punished. That, too, is a natural thought. And it's a true thought.

    I think, perhaps, I mirror you in questioning. I think a lot of us see the same questioning, and no apparant answers. Perhaps we won't, just like the generations before, and after us. Oh well.

    Perhaps this thread shows why the Society doesn't want any of us to "study independently the Bible."
    More hard questions than their easy answers?

  • RedhorseWoman
    RedhorseWoman

    Not a deep Biblical thought....I've been doing very little deep Biblical thinking lately....but have you ever wondered if the Tree of Life, whether intact or its components present in multiple places, still exists?

  • Seven
    Seven

    RhW, Didn't you know? Waiting has been the keeper of the Tree of Life for centuries now. She's having trouble keepin those little wiener dogs from damaging the roots with their digging. Maybe it's time it moves to Rhode Island. seven

    Edited by - sevenofnine on 22 August 2000 0:14:25

  • waiting
    waiting

    Dear Seven,

    Go back to reform school, you little nose picker. WC Fields

    I'm taking back the quote I gave you if you're going to talk trash about me.

    Besides, "little weiner dogs" is insultive to my pedigree Dauchshunds. My male named Stumpy is highly sensitive.

    As a side note: Obviously Stumpy has short legs (thus the name). Well, when he and Ginger were trying to mate for the first time, the little fella just kinda "slide" off her backside.

    So there they were, in the middle of the kitchen (I won't discuss why), and poor first-timer Stumpy "jumped the gun" doing an Onan deed on the kitchen floor. (Use your jw imaginations).

    I looked at it and told my husband: "Man, there goes $2,000 wasted."

    No sense getting sentimental about "split milk."

    Practical waiting

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    Once again the JW Discussion "Bible Research" Forum hits rock bottom. LOL

    Thanks "Waiting" for that little "gem" of a post.

    Path

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hey Path!

    Oops......I didn't realize I was in the Kingdom Hall. Nor did I realize I was in the Bible research area. Nor did I care, btw.

    However, it was a true story. And I did bring a scriptural thought into it - Onan and his wasting his seman on the ground. So that counts for something, huh?

    And next time around, Little Stumpy figured it out and we had a gorgeous litter of Red Dapples and $2,000! Cutest things I ever saw. And btw, once Stumpy figured it out - no more spilt milk - males always seem to figure it out, sooner or later.

    Well, Path, I seemed to have brought a scriptural thought, sex and money into the same short post. And made a profit and laughed. That's pretty good for midnight.

    waiting

    Edited by - waiting on 22 August 2000 7:27:0

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    Hey Waiting. You know I got a kick out of your post. We aren't in a Kingdom Hall and you are a free person, I wouldn't tell you what to do or say.

    With all due respect Waiting, all I was implying was that it would be nice to preserve the dignity I think at least this forum deserves.

    I've been enjoying this thread, but haven't yet spent the time exploring the issue. A good question Kristen and good replies. Thanks for your comments Frenchy.

    Path

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