The JWS claim to be a restoration of 1st century christianity,when did apostacy set in in theeir mindset?
WHEN DID APOSTACY SET IN?
by badboy 23 Replies latest jw friends
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Golf
Badboy, it's an interesting question. Apostasy in the first century occurred and was taking place 'within' the Christian congregations. There would be false teachers to misled others. When the last of the apostles died, apostasy would take on a bigger role, is this happening within the JW's? Are there teachers and groups subverting the faith of others 'within' the congregations?
Who's making it possible for these people to leave the JW's org?
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unclebruce
Christian apostacy began when Apostate Paul subverted Jesus & James roman fighting Nazarean party shortly after Jesus death. Check it out and see if I'm 100% on the money.
cheers, unclebruce.
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Mary
The JWS claim to be a restoration of 1st christianity,when did apostacy set in in theeir mindset?
Do you mean in the 1st century CE, or the 20th century CE? They feel that apostasy was making some headway even before the apostles died off, but then it supposedly really took off after the last apostle died early in the 2nd century CE. As for "modern day" apostacy, they think it set in after 1914 when a bunch left the Borganization when they failed to be beamed up to heaven in the fall of that year. Ironically, even though their prophecy was false, they didn't view themselves as apostate, but in true JW fashion, they viewed anyone in the Organization who openly questioned their false doctrines as "apostates" or part of the "evil slave class". The next real bout of "apostasy" happened of course in the early 1980s when Ray Franz and others were DF'd for not believing the false doctrines that they were being forced to promote. The latest round of "apostasy" is of course the fall out of the "generation" issue and the access to the internet which really exposes the religion. Should be interesting to see where it goes from here..........
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badboy
I mean 1st century,MARY
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Elsewhere
It would have had to be after 431 AD because that is when the bible cannon the JWs use was finalized.
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badboy
If Christianity was `apostized' by that time,how came they are using the same Bible!
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Mary
Badboy, STOP thinking for yourself like that and asking questions that make sense! Questions like that will only CONFUSE you and make you lose faith in God's Organization!!
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Leolaia
Please bear in mind that the biblical concept of a great "apostasy" or rebellion in the future in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 is of an apocalyptic Antichrist figure akin to the "Beast" of Revelation, who performs signs and wonders and sets up an image of himself in the Temple like the "abomination that causes destruction" in Daniel and in the Synoptic apocalypse, "proclaiming himself to be God". This Antichrist figure is described in similar terms in the Didache:
"For in the last days false prophets and seducers shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; and because of abounding iniquity they shall hate each other, and persecute each other, and deliver each other up; and then the Deceiver of the world shall appear as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands; and he shall do unlawful things, such as have never happened since the beginning of the world" (Didache 16:3-4).
The author declares that the "secret power of lawlessness is already at work" and the "lawlessness" refers not necessarily to an heresy of doctrine but to immorality, false miracles, and "every sort evil that deceives those who are perishing". Since the "rebellion" (apostasia) itself is linked to the "revealing of the Man of Lawlessness" (v. 3), who would be destroyed by Jesus at his parousia (v. 1, 8), it is clear that this apostasy occurs very close to the coming of Jesus and his angels in judgment with "blazing fire" (1:7). Since neither event has happened yet (unless one takes great liberties with the text), it is pretty pointless trying to ask when this apostasy occurred in the distant past. The Protestant and especially the Adventist notion of a past "Great Apostasy" is very different and derives more from anti-Catholic polemics, as it was part of an attempt to show that the Catholic Church no longer has God's favor which instead rests on your own group (which is exactly what the Watchtower Society still does to this day).
The Society, in distinguishing itself from even Protestantism and much of Adventism, has also tried to attribute the doctrines of the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, immortality of the soul, and so forth to Greek philosophical and pagan influence and has construed this shift away from putative apostolic belief as part of what constituted the "Great Apostasy". This ignores the fact that Bible writers themselves were influenced by contemporary Greek philosophy, and that the Bible is actually much closer to such doctrines than they want to admit, and especially the existence of such faithful men as Polycarp and Ignatius in the early second century who died for their faith in Christ -- but who also believed that Jesus was God. This is where the JW notion of the "Apostasy" broke down for me....were these men apostates for believing that Jesus was God (tho of course, much the same thought occurs in John)? In the case of Polycarp, he was raised as a Christian and lived as one as his whole life. He believed that Jesus was God, calling him "our Lord and God Jesus Christ" (Polycarp, Philippians 12:2). Yet according to the Society he was part of the vanguard against the "Apostasy":
*** w89 11/15 pp. 21-22 ?Away With the Godless!? ***
The proconsul then spoke with greater urgency, saying: "Take the oath and I release you; revile Christ." But Polycarp responded: "Eighty-six years have I served Him, and He has done me no wrong. How can I blaspheme my King who has saved me?"
Preparations were then made for the aged man?s execution. His flesh was to be consumed by fire. Why? Just who was Polycarp? And what events led up to his death?
Polycarp?s
Early LifePolycarp was born about 69 C.E. in Asia Minor, at Smyrna (the modern-day Turkish city of Izmir). Reportedly, he was reared by Christian parents. Maturing into a distinguished gentleman, Polycarp was noted for generosity, self-denial, kindly treatment of others, and diligent study of the Scriptures. In time he became an overseer in the congregation at Smyrna.
It has been reported that in his earlier years, Polycarp took advantage of opportunities to learn directly from some of the apostles. The apostle John apparently was one of his teachers. In fact, Irenaeus relates that Polycarp "was not only instructed by apostles, and had intercourse with many who had seen Christ, but was also appointed for Asia by apostles, in the church that is in Smyrna an overseer." We can only imagine the joy and satisfaction Polycarp derived from such enriching association. It must have helped to equip him for his assignment as an overseer in the congregation.?Acts 20:28; 1 Peter 5:1-4.
Upholds
Basic TruthsPolycarp?s oversight of the congregation began in the challenging years of the foretold apostasy. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3) He was apparently willing to expend himself in behalf of others. Thus, when Ignatius of Antioch, Syria, en route to his martyrdom in Rome, asked the Philippians to send a letter to his home congregation, Polycarp of Smyrna saw to its delivery. At that time he sent the Philippians his own letter....
The matter with Ignatius is even more problematic because he wrote much earlier and also died for his faith (apparently being fed to the lions in Rome), and yet he loved calling Jesus "God" many times in his writings, and the Society is forced to admit this, that "Ignatius of Antioch and Irenaeus of Lyons expressed ideas that could be interpreted, at the most, as belief in a two-in-one God made up of the Father and the Son" (Watchtower, August 1, 1984, p. 20-24), and also noted that "already in the early second century, Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, had introduced a new mothod of congregational government" (Awake!, June 22, 1989, p. 24-27). So was Ignatius part of the "Apostasy" or not? Well, on the one hand the Society cites Polycarp as a Christian hero who "upheld Christian truths" against the "apostasy" (ignoring the fact that his letter refers to Jesus as "God") and he was the close friend of Ignatius who disseminated Ignatius' letters to the other congregations. And on the other hand, the Society firmly places Ignatius within the Apostasy:
***w83 9/15 pp. 12-13 ?Quietly Bringing in Destructive Sects? ***
This apostasy was "already at work" in Paul?s day. However, it became fully revealed only after the death of Jesus? true apostles, when the "restraint" of their presence was removed. (2 Thessalonians 2:6, 7) Little by little, a clergy class began to appear. In the early second century C.E., Ignatius, "bishop" of Antioch, wrote about a three-grade hierarchy of bishops, presbyters (priests) and deacons. "The man of lawlessness" was beginning to take shape.And what about Polycarp's pupil Irenaeus of Lyons, who strenuously defended his orthodox faith against the Gnostics and who frequently not only referred to Jesus as God but also had a rudimentary concept of the Trinity and taught the immortality of the soul and other "apostate" ideas (such as using Greek philosophy to understand the scriptures). Was he part of the apostasy? The Society again cites him as a hero, fighting against the apostasy:
***w90 7/15 p. 21 ?Against Knowledge?Falsely So Called? ***HOW important is truth to you? Does it disturb you that falsehood has distorted, even concealed, the truth about the Creator of heaven and earth? This greatly disturbed Irenaeus, a professed Christian of the second century of our Common Era. He endeavored to expose the dangerous inaccuracies of Gnosticism, an apostate form of Christianity. Earlier, the apostle Paul warned Timothy to turn away from such ?falsely called knowledge.??1 Timothy 6:20, 21. Irenaeus boldly spoke out against erroneous doctrine. For instance, consider what he said in the introduction to his extensive literary work entitled "The Refutation and Overthrow of the Knowledge Falsely So Called." ... He embarked on a life-long struggle against heretical teachings. No doubt he was well aware of the need to apply the apostle Paul?s warning: "Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ."?Colossians 2:8; 1 Timothy 4:7.... There is no record that Florinus ever responded to the touching and forceful letter of Irenaeus. But the words of Irenaeus reveal his genuine concern for a dear friend who had left the way of truth and succumbed to apostasy.?Compare 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7-12.
And on it goes. The Society is clearly ambivalent about the "apostate" status of these men, because on the one hand they want to hold them up as great examples of faith in face of persecution and of defending the "truth" against apostates, and then on the other hand, blame them for developing apostate ideas about the Trinity, for inventing church government, and so forth. The Society wants to include both heterodoxy (such as Gnosticism) and orthodoxy into the Apostasy, because the Society itself rejects the "orthodox" ideas that formed a basic part of early Christianity.
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frenchbabyface
Well somehow JW's are big apostates themself regarding Jesus and father (as he/They couldn't be the apostate(s) him/themself) JW's don't really feel to follow the right thing (even regarding to the bible) or they can't read (funny cause I've heard that some JW's actually learned to read by the WTBS ... Oh well