by Simon 35 Replies latest watchtower bible
There are people today who view Star Wars or Star Trek in an almost Religious manner! But deep down they know it is fictional...they just WISH it WAS real. (usually misfits of society)
I wonder how many Christians feel the same? They deep down know it may be fictional, but WISH it WAS real in order to give their life purpose... (misfits of society too perhaps?)
The Jewish religion hated Jesus back then, so why wouldn't they have accused them of lying instead of resorting to defamation of a person who they would have known wasn't real?
Have you denounced David Ike or maybe L.Ron.Hubbard? What if, in 100 years time, the scientologists are the major religion in the world? Someone would then be writing their "first hand accounts" of the messiah and pointing to the lack of people who objected to him ...
Remember this is in a world before the printing press, certainly the internet. Who said what when was less definite. perhaps the didn't denounce him because there was no "him" for them to denounce and when it's 120+ years later ... how do you denounce "him" ?
None of the bible accounts were written while any of the people supposedly in them were alive!
I disagree. Certain small groups thrive on persecution and it reinforces their beliefs and makes them more determined and convinced of their own "selected" status.
Im only lightly familiar with how the persecution complex works. So from what you've read it can actually affect the people who haven't joined? I.e., I'm a gentil worshipper of.. I dunno Ashtoreth. I see christians without any idols, I believe they are atheists. I see them being killed in coliseums and set alight on lamp posts to serve as street lights, and I know such treatment is wide spread. I would likely believe, because this is what Gentiles believed, that they were being punished by my god or the gods for their atheism or their blaspheme. Then one day one of them comes to me and talks about their Lord the Christ, tells me about things he did, and I, thinking as I do and knowing what I do about current events, join them because I am now convinced their persecution is evidence of their true status instead of gods wrath?
as to your last two statements in the above post if what I just asked can be verified then I would concede you are right. I know the last statement you make is very true, worship of this God has clearly evolved over a very long time and undergone a huge change in Christianity. But I still doubt the persecution complex can be set off in people unassociated with the group who have their own beliefs. Not impossible certainly, but I have trouble accepting it would happen.
Jonathan, you may be interested in this: http://www.salon.com/2013/02/24/the_myth_of_persecution_early_christians_werent_persecuted/
and this:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0062104527/?tag=saloncom08-20
@village
im not opposed to checking that out. But Neros actions are documented by more than biased Christian sources are they not?
Kingdoms are spoken of as mountains in scripture. If the disciples had the faith to cast out demons they could move mountains. As can be seen in scripture, when they aquired the faith to cast out demons they also had the faith to set about "moving" mountains/kingdoms...
So, this saying of Christ may have been an eschatological teaching instead of just a pep talk. (Jesus said it takes MORE than faith to do what they wanted to do) the ability to cast out demons was given to the disciples as a sign and wonder and they believed in Jesus...became subjects of His kingdom.
daniel 2:34-35; daniel 2:44-45
faith in Christ and what He can accomplish through you is a gift from God.
@ island man
I agree; I have no problem conceding you're correct that it doesn't have to be true for people to die for it. My contention (see post with example above), is that the persecution complex wouldn't be set off in those not associated with the group. I.e., I'm not Christian, I believe they are wrong, I see em killed and hung and whatever, I believe this is justice. Why would I ever accept their faith in the face of such events? Yet people did, constantly. (Again see post above, the example is better explained I think.)
Island Man...
the jihadist has something more urgent motivating him than the belief in virgins waiting in heaven. The koran says that if you don't fight in the cause of allah you are a hypocrite and you will be killed by your "brothers"...therefore to avoid being killed, do the truth or be truthful. koran 3:167-168
Matthew 17:20 - He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.
Simon, you're looking at the WRONG gospel! Notice what Luke records...
Luke 17:5 Now the apostles said to the Lord:* “Give us more faith.”+ 6 Then the Lord said: “If YOU had faith the size of a mustard grain, YOU would say to this black mulberry tree,* ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea!’ and it would obey YOU.
There are a couple of points that we can glean from Luke that was unclear in Matthew:
