scholar,
Are you tortured? You sound like it. A tortured being who believes in the "bible'. I't's FICTION! WAKE UP!!!
Pivitol Date Stuff
by IP_SEC 67 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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City Fan
Scholar,
Yet again, no references and not much thought!
I simply explain that there are no biblical problems with the WT interpretation of the seventy years because it is directly based on Jeremiah, Chronicles, Daniel and Zechariah
Don't you realise that Chronicles, Daniel and Zechariah are giving different interpretations of the original 70 years prophecy of Jeremiah.
The Chronicler has the 70 years fulfilled in 539 BC when the royalty of Persia comes to power. Zechariah has the 70 years still running in 519 BC. Just read Zechariah 1:12 again. "O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou have no mercy on Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these seventy years?" This is present tense. I'd like to see just one reference that explains this as a past 70 year period!
And as for Daniel, he rejects the original 70 year prophecy as not being fulfilled in 539 BC and says God actually meant 70 weeks of years. This is because the exile never really stopped. In 539 BC Judea then came under Persian rule and stayed that way for about 200 years. Interesting how Daniel says that the 70 weeks of years should be first split up into a period of 7 weeks of years, or 49 years, roughly the length of time from the destruction of the temple in 587 BC to the coming of Cyrus in 539 BC. Daniel is really saying that the 70 years prophecy of Jeremiah has to be re-interpreted as 'seventy weeks of years' or else Jeremiah's prophecy has failed.
CF.
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Leolaia
The interpretation of "seventy weeks of years" is itself inspired by Leviticus 26:27-34, which mentions a "sevenfold punishment" to the disobedient Israelites, making them "scattered among the nations" and making "their land desolated". This multiplied Jeremiah's original 70 years into 490 years, i.e. 7 x (7 x 10), resulting in a cycle of 70 sabbath-years and 10 jubilees (10 x (7 x 7)). Interpreting the period as a cycle of sabbath-years was encouraged by Leviticus 25:1-10, an application also found in the Chronicler (2 Chronicles 36:19-21). The difference between Daniel and the Chronicler is that the former interpreted Jeremiah's 70 years as 70 sabbath-years over a 490-year period, while the latter construed the period as consecutive sabbath-years ending when "the kingdom of Persia came to power". That Daniel is dependent on Leviticus is indicated by the "weeks of years" concept, the allusion to the curses of Leviticus 26 in Daniel 9:11 ("the curse and imprecation written in the Law of Moses"), and especially Daniel's prayer and "confession" in v. 4 ff which fulfills Leviticus 26:40-44, in which "they shall confess their sins and the sins of their fathers ... They must atone for their sin ... when they are in the land of their enemies". Daniel has however altered the period of seventy years from a period of servitude (Jeremiah) or sabbath-rest (the Chronicler) into a period of divine disfavor during which "the devastations of Jerusalem" occur (9:2). In the expanded seventy weeks of years, the "squares and ramparts" may be "restored and rebuilt" (v. 25), but "the city and sanctuary will be destroyed" again before the completion of the seventy weeks of years. Thus the "devastations of Jerusalem" truly did not come to an end after the literal 70 years were completed. Even as late as 445 BC, Jerusalem was still described as "devastated" from the Nebuchadnezzer attack (Nehemiah 2:17) -- long after the literal 70 years had come to an end. So it was to "your holy city" and "your people" that the seventy weeks of years were decreed (v. 24). Daniel's application of the seventy years is thus different from that of the other writers.
The initial "seven weeks" in 9:25 is also interesting because it corresponds to the length of a jubilee period, and the exile of the Jews would correspond to the 49 years of servitude for slaves who, in the 50th year of their servitude, would be released and "return to his ancestral home, each to his own clan" (Leviticus 2:1-10). If the Jews first returned from exile in 537 BC, this fits nicely with the length of the jubilee period.
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M.J.
I dont "get" the whole 1914 thing.
I'm glad Jesus made the simple promise that no one will know when he will return--just be ready for it cause it will happen and it will be visible to all..and that being open and ready for him doesn't depend on sorting through a complicated mess of wild chronological assumptions.
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euripides
Scholar wrote:
BA MA Studies in Religion
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What's that worldly wisdom all about? Lots of people here can do it too, like:
BA Classics; MA Religious Studies; JD Law BUT that doesn't mean I am more authoritative about WT (mis)interpretation, does it? On another thread I cited this page http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/607b.htm for the history on how that date was arrived at.
The best answer I heard when I asked for my mentor's opinion of fifty years of exile rather than seventy failing to match prophecy, he shrugged it off: "Close enough." It wasn't that he was investing any great meaning into the prophecy in the first place, just that it was close and that was enough. ROFLMAO! I just laughed and laughed. Such an easy answer...
BTW, what's with all the insulting language, that breaks posting guidleine #1.
Euripides
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scholar
City Fan
Your comment in your last post is utter nonsense. You accuse me of showing no thought in my postings on the seventy years and yet your previous comment that Zechariah, the Chronicler and Daniel have different interpretations to that of Jeremiah is awful and plain ly stupid. You compound this stupidity and ignorance by presenting a wide spectrum of dates for the seventy years which leads one conclude that the Bible does not speak of just ONE sevnty years but several seventy years. Talk about mindless confusion.
Harking back to Zechariah 1:7 whereupon the angel declares that Jehovah had denounced Jerusalem and the cities of Judah these seventy years. This must and only must refer to an already elapsed or expired period of time as it could only have referred to that period when the Land of Judah lay desolate, such an event was signified right up to the present day by regular fastings. The Jewish nation has only one period of seventy years marked by exile. servitude and desolation from the sestruction of their cities, land, religion, temple, monarchy priesthood until their return when all things could be restored.
Again, the next mention of the seventy years by the same prophet is in Zechariajh 7:4 given two yeras later in Darius; 4th year. The context does not speak of denunciation but that of fasting and the work of the prophets namely Jeremiah during the tome when the land was inhabited in verse seven. What then was the word of Jehovah spoken by those prophets because of their disobedience? The answer is given in verses 14 and 15 which refer to the judgement from Jehovah which resulted in the land now becoming uninhabited and desolate. This metaphorical description of the state of the land is known by scholars as TREATY CURSES and is common to Jeremiah,
In conclusion. Zechariah speaks of two 'seventy year' periods as having already been completed so common sense tells you that these periods must have been historic events already have come to pass. There is only ONE period in Jewish and biblical history that speaks of seventy years and the context of both Jeremiah, Chronicles, Danial and Zechariah agree in concert that the seventy years is one period marked by servitude to a foreign World Power, Babylon, a exile to, in. for, at, Babylon with the land remaining desolate until the exiles returned home to restore their religion, country, temple, family, cities, etc. This most momentous event in Biblical history and Theology was and is interpreted by Jehovah's Witnesses as running from 607 to 537.
scholar
BA MA Studies in Religion
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AlanF
For anyone who hasn't seen his moronic, Watchtower-based comments before, unscholar here is dully repeating that which he has dully repeated many times before. He says to City Fan:
: Your comment in your last post is utter nonsense. You accuse me of showing no thought in my postings on the seventy years and yet your previous comment that Zechariah, the Chronicler and Daniel have different interpretations to that of Jeremiah is awful and plain ly stupid.
Note the complete lack of support for this claim in his comments that follow:
: You compound this stupidity and ignorance by presenting a wide spectrum of dates for the seventy years which leads one conclude that the Bible does not speak of just ONE sevnty years but several seventy years.
A mere unsupported claim. How does unscholar justify it? By invoking the notion that "confusion" results if one understands that the Bible might well use "70" for several different time periods.
: Talk about mindless confusion.
Actually the mindlessness comes from JWs like unscholar who dully repeat Watchtower arguments. The Bible also speaks about a number of different 40 year periods -- and so by unscholar's 'logic' they must all be the same period. Thus, the Israelites wandered in the wilderness forty years while Solomon reigned for forty years.
: Harking back to Zechariah 1:7
LOL! This bozo can't even get his verse numbers right: it's Zech. 1:12 here.
: whereupon the angel declares that Jehovah had denounced Jerusalem and the cities of Judah these seventy years. This must and only must refer to an already elapsed or expired period of time as it could only have referred to that period when the Land of Judah lay desolate,
Nope. Note the context in the full passage quote below for Zech. 1:1-12 (NASB):
1 In the eighth month of the second year of Darius, the word of the LORD came to Zechariah the prophet, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo saying, 2 "The LORD was very angry with your fathers. 3 "Therefore say to them, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Return to Me," declares the LORD of hosts, "that I may return to you," says the LORD of hosts. 4 "Do not be like your fathers, to whom the former prophets proclaimed, saying, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Return now from your evil ways and from your evil deeds "' But they did not listen or give heed to Me," declares the LORD. 5 "Your fathers, where are they? And the prophets, do they live forever? 6 "But did not My words and My statutes, which I commanded My servants the prophets, overtake your fathers? Then they repented and said, 'As the LORD of hosts purposed to do to us in accordance with our ways and our deeds, so He has dealt with us.'"'"
7 On the twenty-fourth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Shebat, in the second year of Darius, the word of the LORD came to Zechariah the prophet, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo, as follows: 8 I saw at night, and behold, a man was riding on a red horse, and he was standing among the myrtle trees which were in the ravine, with red, sorrel and white horses behind him. 9 Then I said, "My lord, what are these?" And the angel who was speaking with me said to me, "I will show you what these are." 10 And the man who was standing among the myrtle trees answered and said, "These are those whom the LORD has sent to patrol the earth." 11 So they answered the angel of the LORD who was standing among the myrtle trees and said, "We have patrolled the earth, and behold, all the earth is peaceful and quiet." 12 Then the angel of the LORD said, "O LORD of hosts, how long will You have no compassion for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been indignant these seventy years?"
Verses 1-6 are clearly addressed to the Jews to whom Zechariah was to declare God's message: "Return to me now" was the basic theme. It was not addressed to the Jews of twenty years earlier. Thus, the context is the present. Verses 7-11 emphasize that the context is the present by stating that the visionary horse riders patrolled the earth and found that "all the earth is peaceful and quiet." Was that twenty years earlier? Obviously not. Therefore the context of verse 12 must also be the present. This is obvious from the form of the question itself: "How long will You have no compassion for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah?" The question "how long will ...?" is clearly in the present tense, and so the question obviously means that God was not, at that time -- in that present -- showing compassion "for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah." Therefore the second phrase of the question must also refer to that present time: "with which You have been indignant these seventy years." The idea is clearly NOT "with which You had been indignant those seventy years." Therefore the seventy years spoken of were still ongoing.
There is no evidence whatsoever from the text that the seventy years had been completed, but only that it was a time period that was seventy years from its beginning to when the words were spoken.
: such an event was signified right up to the present day by regular fastings.
Unscholar finally manages to get an interpretation right.
Next we see unscholar making yet another usupported assertion:
: The Jewish nation has only one period of seventy years marked by exile.
Unscholar cites no biblical texts to support this claim. Indeed, he's putting his conclusion in place of his assumptions and using it to 'verify' his conclusion. A circular argument.
: servitude and desolation from the sestruction of their cities, land, religion, temple, monarchy priesthood until their return when all things could be restored.
This claim has been shown to be false many times on this board.
: Again, the next mention of the seventy years by the same prophet is in Zechariajh 7:4
Yet again unscholar shows his inability to get figures right. The passage is Zech. 7:5.
: given two yeras later in Darius; 4th year. The context does not speak of denunciation but that of fasting and the work of the prophets namely Jeremiah during the tome when the land was inhabited in verse seven.
The fasting was clearly being done at the time the words of God came to Zechariah. Zech 7:1-7 reads (NASB):
1 In the fourth year of King Darius, the word of the LORD came to Zechariah on the fourth day of the ninth month, which is Chislev. 2 Now the town of Bethel had sent Sharezer and Regemmelech and their men to seek the favor of the LORD, 3 speaking to the priests who belong to the house of the LORD of hosts, and to the prophets, saying, "Shall I weep in the fifth month and abstain, as I have done these many years?" 4 Then the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying, 5 "Say to all the people of the land and to the priests, 'When you fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh months these seventy years, was it actually for Me that you fasted? 6 'When you eat and drink, do you not eat for yourselves and do you not drink for yourselves? 7 'Are not these the words which the LORD proclaimed by the former prophets, when Jerusalem was inhabited and prosperous along with its cities around it, and the Negev and the foothills were inhabited?'"
The context is again the present, since the men were inquiring of God, "Shall I weep ... as I have done these many years?" The passage does not speak of men some 22 years earlier having wept and fasted, but of the men of that present time weeping and fasting. The idea is obviously, "Shall I continue to weep in the fifth month and continue to abstain from food, as I have continued to do these many years?" Therefore, when God then refers to when the Jews "fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh months these seventy years", it's unarguable that he means that the Jews were still fasting and mourning at that present time. This is confirmed by the very next question God asks: "When you eat and drink, do you not eat for yourselves and do you not drink for yourselves?" Obviously this was not referring to Jews of 22 years previous, but to the Jews to whom God was then speaking. It would be nonsensical to claim that God referred to what the Jews of 22 years previously had done for seventy years, because then the present Jews would have to be asking, "Shall we resume weeping and abstaining in the fifth month, as our forefathers had done those many years?"
Verse 7 then refers back to the time before the destruction of Jerusalem with an aside.
: What then was the word of Jehovah spoken by those prophets because of their disobedience? The answer is given in verses 14 and 15
As usual, unscholar has the verse numbers wrong. There is no verse 15.
: which refer to the judgement from Jehovah which resulted in the land now becoming uninhabited and desolate. This metaphorical description of the state of the land is known by scholars as TREATY CURSES and is common to Jeremiah,
All of which is irrelevant to the question at hand.
: In conclusion. Zechariah speaks of two 'seventy year' periods as having already been completed
The texts, as I have shown above, show that this is false: the periods were ongoing.
: so common sense tells you that these periods must have been historic events already have come to pass.
Note the circular argument here.
: There is only ONE period in Jewish and biblical history that speaks of seventy years
A mere unsupported assertion.
: and the context of both Jeremiah, Chronicles, Danial and Zechariah agree in concert that the seventy years is one period marked by servitude to a foreign World Power, Babylon, a exile to, in. for, at, Babylon with the land remaining desolate until the exiles returned home to restore their religion, country, temple, family, cities, etc.
Absolutely, unequivocally, and demonstrably wrong.
: This most momentous event in Biblical history and Theology was and is interpreted by Jehovah's Witnesses as running from 607 to 537.
Sure, and these same astute Bible scholars also brought to the world of crackpot religion the notion that God lives on the star Alcyone in the Pleiades constellation, that vaccines are bad medicine, that organ transplants and blood transfustions violate God's law, that all of the earth's sedimentary rock was laid down in Noah's Flood a few thousand years ago, and a host of other ridiculous ideas. Since a number of commentators have thoroughly demonstrated that JW chronological claims are wrong, and secular history proves they're wrong, and the supporters of that chronology are demonstrably crackpots, the conclusion is obvious: JW apologists like unscholar have no clue what they're talking about.
AlanF
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scholar
Alan F and City Fan
1. Apostates and critics have various interpretations of the seventy years and are hopelessly confused on this matter. For example, the Jonsson hypothesis claims that are twi sevety year periods at least: a period of Babylonian supremacy of servitude ending with 539 but no substantive beginning. Jonsson struggles with two candidates such as 605 or 609? and the seventy years of Zechariah from a hopless 589-587? until 520-515? Talk about hopeless confusion. This range of Zechariah is plainly stupid because it shows that his interpretation of the seventy years as present and unfulfilled disallows a seventy years calculation. These proposed dates of four in number offer numerous time periods or permutations and becomes a statistical nightmare. Thiese facts are from GTR, 1998, 3rd edn, pp228-9.
2.In Zechariah 1:12 the text clearly states"whom you have denounced these seventy years" which is a clear past time event or period which had already been fulfilled . The only period that would be known to these returnees would be the previous exile by Babylon which began when the temple was destroyed and the land desolated. This proven by the fact that this period cannot be determined as shown by Jonsson and those who argue that this event is somehow still ongoing. if it is argued that the seventy years is ongoing how can it be seventy years and what year did it precisely end and begin?Also, the context clearly shows that the denunciation referred not just to Jerusalem but also to the cities of Judah which only happened in that period of servitude, exile and desolation.
3. In Zechariah 7:5 there is another past time reference introduced into a present time discourse. The fastings referred to were carried on by the Jews after the loss of the Temple and memorialized right up to the reign of Darius.The verses immediately following verse five are a sarcastic reminder of Jehovah's denunciation and judgement of his formerly disobedient people which finally concludes in verses 13 and 14 of the desolation of the land.
In short, advocates of a present time hypothesis such as Jonsson cannot propose a definite beginning or ending of this seventy years. Those who support a past time hypothesis are able to point to the definite period of seventy years of servitude, exile and desolation which had already expired and was imbedded into the Jewish psyche so as to be memorialized by annular fastings.
scholar
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City Fan
Scholar,
Those who support a past time hypothesis are able to point to the definite period of seventy years of servitude, exile and desolation which had already expired
Can you come up with a reference outside of Watchtower publications that supports this view? Just one will do. (apart from Furuli pages 87-88 where you are getting this argument from)
CF.
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scholar
City Fan
It is my own summation of all the biblical and historical evidence based on the 'seventy years' texts and those biblical books that deal with prophecy, history and theology of this unique period of Jewish history.To conclude otherwise would require this period to be understood euther as a round number or to have the seventy yeras asigned to different historical periods which is nonsensical. WT chronology alone harmonizes all the available data into a holistic account of events for that critical period.
scholat
BA MA Studies in Religion