Comments You Will Not Hear at the 1-30-05 WT Study (Abbreviated)

by blondie 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  TheEdge

  As in last week?s article, the WTS tries to show that the angels are directing JWs to the "sheep."

  lol - in BROADMOOR?
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  TheEdge

  Trustworthy advice - cover up pedophilia - must have two witnesses

  TWO Witnesses? (yes, like there's GOING to be witnesses to THAT crime - the only witness here is the victim!) and yet, I know (personally) of elders acting on hearsay!!
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  OldSoul

  For example, we often hear that in the course of their ministry, Jehovah?s Witnesses come across a person who had only recently prayed to God for help in finding the truth. Such experiences occur far too often to be dismissed as mere coincidences. (If you have the WT-CD, search using Revelation 14:6 and you will find the many examples)

  My question is, if we asked the Mormons or other Christian groups that preach door to door, would they have the same feelings and similar proof? What about all the people who prayed and no one came?has that been evaluated?

  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints also claims to be spirit directed and they have reams of anecdotal evidence of the identical variety. Three times in my life I happened up on "Elders" from LDS either already talking with my call or knocking on the door while I was inside. Were the angels sending mixed messages?

  I believe these anecdotes are evidence that people frequently pray for God's help in understanding and finding the truth, that is all that is proven by the stories related. Fortunately for both the LDS and WTS no one can deny their claims because your question regarding people who prayed without a miraculous arrival right on cue can never be objectively evaluated. Also, any negative accounts could be brushed aside by simply challenging the sincerity of the supplicator - a twist on an old "faith-healer's" trick.

  WTS/LDS: "If you didn't doubt at all you would have had a visit from one of (Jehovah's Witnesses/our missionary Elders, fresh out of their diapers). But you were weak."

  Supplicator: "Of course I was weak, that is why I prayed. I knew I was weak and prayed for truth and strength and mercy."

  WTS/LDS: "Then you must have doubted you would receive what you asked for."

  Supplicator: "Of course I doubted I would receive, I am weak and do not believe God would trouble him/herself with me because I am too sinful."

  WTS: "Ah. See, that is where you went wrong. If only you had not doubted you would have gotten a visit while you prayed and wouldn't have gone through with killing yourself. Some of our people at the (Tim Horton's, Duncan Donuts, et al) would have had an incredible impulse to leap from their table and rush to your house to stay your hand."

  LDS: "Ah. See, that is where you went wrong. If only you had not doubted you would have gotten a visit while you prayed and wouldn't have gone through with killing yourself. Some of our people at the (non-caffeinated dives) would have had a soft, still voice whispering to them and they would have leapt up to rush to your house and stay your hand."

  If the WTS is right, Supplicator: "----." There is no work nor devising nor knowledge in Sheol, so the suicidal supplicator cannot speak.

  If the LDS is right, Supplicator: "What?! I failed the test?!"

  Since neither is right, occasionally each group is lucky enough to intervene and keep someone alive to teach them The Truth?. It is odd how you never hear the accounts of someone on the verge of suicide and Jehovah's Witnesses calling at that moment is the minor annoyance that finally pushes them over the edge. You know it happens. Did the angels direct it? No.

  Respectfully,
  OldSoul
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  BluesBrother

  Cyber -sista - spot on with your comments about study and questions, my experience exactly.

  Todays article : Para 6 "We often hear that in the course of their ministry Jehovah's witnesses come accross a person who had only recently prayed to God for help in finding the truth. Such experiences occurr far too often to be dismised as mere coincidences"

  Well last year they reported 1,282,234,887 hours. Multiply that by say 15 - 25 to get a guess at the number of calls they made. If one call in a million hours said it, then that would still make a thousand a year, or 3 every day. I think that pure maths shows that this claim is hardly evidence of "Divine backing" (correct me please if my interpretation of the figures is wrong )

  Para 21 "A couple in the congregation took this grieving couple into their home and cared for them for several weeks"...

  I too have known of examples of unselfish kindness in the congos . But that is not evidence of Holy Spirit, rather the simple humanity that mankind can still show, even in these "Wicked days". I have not yet seen afilm called "Hotel Rwanda", but I understand that it records acts of extreme kindness and risk for ones fellow man, and nothing to do with J W's - They would have you believe that everybody outside of their own org is a selfish egocentric, but experience tells us that that claim is just not true

  BTW. Did anybody else comment on the cover picture to this mag, Dec 15th? It shows a nativity scene with Joseph, Mary and the baby and a manger and some animals in the background. The caption reads, "A Birth To Be Remembered".. At first glance it looked a magazine extolling the virtues of a religious Christmas celebration. It is only inside that a reader gathers that they view Christmas as a pagan custom not to be celebrated. . I think that is disingenuous to mislead the reader like that .
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  jeanniebeanz

  Instead they go to great legnths trying to discredit some scriptures

  Actually asked a question about this during a Watchtower Study years ago. My ex's face went ashen and it was a struggle with 'bro kiss-up' for control of the mic so that I could finish my question. It was pretty funny. Because of that question, and the way that the brother conducting the study answered it so poorly, there were a lot of after meeting discussions going on with the many bible studies that had been brought to the hall that morning. Oh and one beating going on in the back room; mine...

  J
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  heathen

  Way to go jeanniebeanz . LMAO In my short period of study I also noticed scripture that disproved alot of WTBTS dogma but was conveniently muzzled , they don't waste time trying to put ya down either , they may as well put a sign on the front door " It's our way or the highway. " I eventually took the highway back to sanity . They really don't think about other peoples feelings when it comes to control ,they will slander people over any petty thing trying to discredit the person instead of come up with logical exsplanations to counter argue . I really believe these people will even invade your privacy at home with electronic surveillance . They even lie to your face about it as one who loves the lie and is accursed by God . I did bring it up one time and I know they lied about it .
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  OldSoul

  Since Blondie thoroughly covered every single point that I found save one, I will only comment on that one. I hope to make this a weekly tag-along to Blondie's thread, if she'll have me.
  

  Welcome to the first installment of "This Week In Sophistry" where I will attempt to focus a lot of attention on at least one glaring flaw in reasoning.

  This week, the spotlight of incredulity shines on paragraphs 16, 17 of December 15, 2004 Watchtower article entitled, "Do You Accept Jehovah's Help?"
  

  16 Psalms 1:2, 3 says of the godly man: "His delight is in the law of Jehovah, and in an undertone he reads in it day and night. And he will certainly become like a tree planted by streams of water, that gives its own fruit in its season and the foliage of which does not wither, and everything he does will succeed." Do you see the point of that passage? It is easy to read those words and conclude that they merely paint a pretty picture of a peaceful setting ? a shade tree growing by a river. How pleasant it would be to take an afternoon nap in such a spot! But this Psalm is not inviting us to think about rest. It is painting quite a different picture, one that suggests hard work. How so? 17 Notice that the tree here is not merely a shade tree growing by chance next to a river. It is a fruit-bearing tree, deliberately "planted" in a chosen spot ? "by stream of water." How could one tree grow near more than one stream? Well, in an orchard of fruit trees, the owner might well dig irrigation ditches to bring water to the roots of his valuable trees. Ah, now the point comes into focus! If in a spiritual sense we flourish like that tree, it is because much work has been done in our behalf. We are associated with an organization that brings the pure waters of truth right to us, but we must do our part. We need to put ourselves in a position to soak up this precious water, engaging in the meditation and research needed in order to bring the truths of God's Word into our mind and heart. In that way, we too will produce good fruitage.

  That passage in Psalms makes a mockery of much that Jehovah's Witnesses teach to be truth. I love the question, "Do you see the point..." Wow! Now that's effective manipulation! The implication is: "If you don't believe the way we do you are less spiritually atuned than we are." Sophists frequently use such phrases to gain mass consensus of opinion where there is no actual reasonable basis for support of a viewpoint. The artful question is followed by a farcically simplistic interpretation that would not be arrived at by anyone with an IQ greater than the upper teens (mild exaggeration). The intent? The effective sophist must flatter the victim(s) by engendering a feeling of superiority to others. This works best when the "others" are merely a figment of the imagination in the victimized mind(s). Imaginary masses of people can be as ignorant as you like in comparison with yourself, it is immaterial (literally and figuratively) that these comparative fools do not exist. Anyone would feel intellectual alongside such imagined dolts.

  Are the streams of water truths from God's Word? Well, at risk of defying the magisterium of the Faithful and Discreet Clergy ... er, um, that is ... Faithless and Calloused Slave ... er, um, that is ... well, you know who I mean. Anyway, at risk of defying them I used the Bible to interpret itself (see October 15, 1998 Watchtower, p. 5 "The Importance of the Scriptures") as shameful a practice as that is.

  I came up with John 4:7-15; 6:60-68; 7:37-39; 15:11-27; 16:12-16; Luke 11:5-13; 1 Corinthians 1-4; Revelation 22:17. From these scriptures I concluded that the streams of water are Holy Spirit. You know what? I couldn't find a single scripture indicating that the streams of water was "God's Word" or "truth from God's Word." Try as hard as I might, I could not find a single instance of holy spirit being supplied through an organization of any kind. I could not find a single instance of any organization being directed or led by holy spirit. There are hundreds of instances of individuals being variously directed, led, opposed, assisted, and taught by holy spirit.

  Is this water only obtainable by those who are attached to an organization? Luke 11:5-13; James 1:5 indicate that there is no organization required for this water, only a receptive heart and an eager desire to know. Receptive to holy spirit, that is, and an eagerness manifested by studiousness and prayerfulness.

  Jesus did not attach himself to the earthly organization of his day, and he did not hold back from rebuking that organization when it instructed contrary to God's Word - and contrary to the holy spirit. I know whose example I try to follow.
  

  Ah, now the point comes into focus!

  Translation: "Of course you see it for what it is, because you are mature enough to let us lead you by the nose ring we installed when you answered those two questions on the most important day of your life! Those other imaginary fools are the ones who don't 'get it,' not you. You're too smart for that."

  Implication: "If it isn't in focus for you, you must be one of those imaginary dolts who has an overly simplistic view of things. You better pretend to be sharper than you are or else other Witnesses will think you are a fool."

  And again it is the "truth" that produces fruitage. Odd how that directly contradicts Galatians 5:22, 23, isn't it? Why, Paul must have been a fool who didn't get that it is the "truth" that produces fine fruitage! Poor confused apostle Paul ... tsk ... he thought the spirit produced fine fruitage. Silly apostle, it is plain to any who are mature that it is The Truth? (Patent Pending, Wachtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.) from God's Word that produces fine fruitage. Ipso facto, Paul was spiritually immature. That must be the case, because he just didn't "get it" at all. It wasn't in focus for him. After all, what did he know? Aside from the languages the Bible was originally written in, that is, and the Mosaic Law and Talmud from the teachings of the most prominent lawyer of the time, and the pre-Mosaic Torah.
  

  If in a spiritual sense we flourish like that tree, it is because much work has been done in our behalf.

  Translation: "Jehovah, and Jesus, and the angels, and the Faithful and Discreet Slave have been digging ditches for years now. If you flourish spiritually that is no credit to you. If you have a close relationship with God, have deep knowledge of the Bible, have strong faith, and LOVE - it is only because you did what you have been told to do. It is no credit to you personally. You have no reason for boasting."

  Implication: "You are a self-centered ingrate if you don't appreciate all this hard work we did to mislead you into thinking that truth from God's Word is the streams of water and that you can only get this truth through the Faithful and Discreet Slave."

  Hopefully, this gives some fodder for discussion and/or thought. This has been "This Week In Sophistry" with your host, OldSoul.

  Respectfully,
  OldSoul
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  blondie

  Thanks for bringing that out, OS. I had reached my vomit level by the time I got to that.
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  heathen

  Oldsoul -- I was LMAO .... You could have easily called it , this week in brain washing . They really do compare the WTBTS to the city of new jerusalem in revelation with the rivers of water of life flowing . I can't suspend my disbelief enough to grasp hold of the deep meaning presented by the WTBTS .
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  stillajwexelder

  Just been to the study - I answered up too on paragraph 18