Issues with claiming to be TFDS

by Check_Your_Premises 24 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Check_Your_Premises

  I submit the following for your thoughts and comments

  Making the claim

  The single most significant problem I have with the JW doctrine, is that they claim that God chose them to be his earthly organization, to the exclusion of all others. For the purposes of this discussion I will concede that God at some point will or has chosen an organization to be TFDS (The Faithful and Descreet Slave).

  If God chooses to designate a person(s) as a special servant, He has two means of making this choice manifest. First, He can directly contact all people He wishes to be made aware of His choice. An example of this would be the burning bush, or Christ walking on water. The key here, is that these are events that could have no other reasonable explanation to those beholding the events (save madness).

  The second means he could use to make His decision manifest would be for Him to place it in the Bible, and make it apparent to those studying the Bible through the direction of His Holy Spirit. This is the means by which the JW claim that God used to make His choice known. This method would require people choosing whether or not they believe that God made this choice. In the first case there is no choice for people because there is simply no other reasonable explanation for the manifestation.

  My questions here are:

  Has God ever chosen a "special servant" and made His choice known through the second means?

  The problem I have with the credibility of the second means is that it does require that people choose to believe it. All people decide to believe something by collecting a set of relevant facts, and using those facts and reason to prove as much as possible that something is/isn't true. An unfortunate fact of human nature is that what a person chooses to believe is heavily influenced by what they want to believe. Another unfortunate fact of human nature is that we are all inherently prideful. We all have a desire to think of ourselves and present ourselves to others as somehow superior.

  So my question here is:

  How could any person assembling the facts and reasoning on them to determine that they themselves are TFDS, not be unduly influenced in making that choice, by the natural desire for the honor of being the one and only FDS of an Omnipotent Creator?

  What makes me uncomfortable with the claim that JW make is that I simply do not think it is humanly possible for a person to decide to believe that God chose them, without their own pride influencing that decision. Furthermore, for them to be wrong on such a matter would mean that they took their decision and incorrectly said it was God's decision. Even if they were completely honest in their mistake (which I don't think is possible), I would have to think it would be blasphemous.

  So my questions here are:

  Wouldn't any honest person realize that they could not possibly be objective in choosing to believe that God chose them? Wouldn't they be so afraid of getting it wrong, that they wouldn't want to even seriously entertain the thought, let alone proclaim it?

  If a person did choose to believe that God chose them, if they were honest wouldn't they constantly have to question their reasoning to make sure they got it right? Does the Governing Body ever question this belief?
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  heathen

  I personally believe there is more to it than the WTBTS would have it's reader believe . The anointed in the bible had gifts of the spirit and profesy was one of them and the most important . I think the WTBTS has gotten things wrong so many times that their credibility is 0 . Question their reasoning is a big no no in the organization , why they even have people convinced that questioning them is like questioning God himself and you can forfiet your chance for eternal life right there . You may even be shunned or marked as bad association for not complying with every word written by a publishing corporation .That's how they deal with it , not with facts or personal testamony of failures or humility .
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  in a new york bethel minute

  that was an excellent post CYP... it really rings truth and brings an excellent point home

  Wouldn't any honest person realize that they could not possibly be objective in choosing to believe that God chose them? Wouldn't they be so afraid of getting it wrong, that they wouldn't want to even seriously entertain the thought, let alone proclaim it?

  i have never looked at it that way before... but it seems that most prophets had to be discovered. it was usually their deeds or words that would impress other people and then the people would label them as such. or maybe im thinking about the messiah.

  either way it's kind of like an insecure person bragging all the time. they have no talent or real substance, so they just keep talking about how great they are and how much stuff they have and all the things they're never going to do.

  bethel light
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  Honesty

  I believe the Governing Body was chosen as the voice of a god alright.

  He is not as powerful as the God I personally chose to be my Lord and God.

  Never was. Never will be.

  So much for their humble claims.

  Next topic, please.
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  jeanniebeanz

  Wouldn't any honest person realize that they could not possibly be objective in choosing to believe that God chose them?

  That is an excellent question. In fact, when you look at some of the examples in the Bible of people God chose in the past, many did not want the honor. Moses comes to mind, and even Christ prayed to 'have the cup removed' from him. It is not exactly a light burden, and something that no one would choose lightly if they really understood the ramifications of being a spokesperson for God.

  I do not remember other servents of God having to change their predictions either like the GB does. I think in their cases, it is delusion and a grasp for power over other peoples lives.

  Jeannie
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  TheEdge

  Welcome, Check_Your_Premises. I agree with you here - a lot of people think they are ''special'' in some sort of way, and I don't suppose the JW are any different, so claiming to be members of the FDS (could) just be a ''personality flaw''.

  As to God manifesting himself - gosh, they'd be laughed at and (possibly) sectioned.....I mean what is the reaction to people who claim to see things (eg, UFOs and ghosts)?

  And then there are rational people who have hallucinated but KNOW that's all it is (eg, due to sleep deprivation - which is quite bizarre). That person knows there is a logical explanation - but one of the above may see it as God KEEPING them awake to feed them visions!
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  TheEdge

  ......and you know what else would be interesting to know? the proportion of FDS representing their ethnic/social/etc background. I always imagined God would choose a proportional representation to rule, as this makes sense to me. In actual fact, from what I understand, back in the 1930s, many people from the same families were ''chosen'' (I am beginning to think they were just of the same ''personality trait'' and got caught up in some religious frenzy).

  How many Asians / Africans etc has Jehovah chosen? Will every nationality (on Earth) be represented in Heaven by 143,995 Americans?
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  BluesBrother

  Does the Governing Body ever question this belief?

  Er, No. they never waver from the unshakeable beleif that they are right, and all the rest of the world is therefore wrong. Except that of course they are not directly inspired so they could be wrong about somethings but only the Gov Body could say so. Then what they change it to will be right , until they say it was wrong. But it was not really wrong because it was right for its time , so there! Confused??

  Right now it is 8.20 on a cold wet Saturday morning in the UK. I wonder how many of their misguided families are being coaxed out of bed for another fruitless morning of "Magazine work". Offering unwanted mags on doors where no one answers used to be no fun at all.
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  AlmostAtheist

  This is an excellent post. I never thought about the idea that a person that thinks he might be the FDS would/should be terribly frightened to reveal that information, for fear that he's wrong. The conviction that such a person would need to feel would be on the top of an impossibly steep hill and the more he believed it himself, the steeper that hill should become.

  Unless he manages to side-step it by filling the position for someone else. Russell didn't claim to be the FDS at first, but his followers said he was. Then he started admitting that he was. Then he died, so who was the FDS then? Logically, it would be whoever filled Russell's position in the organization, Rutherford.

  It looks like it was a gradual process to install the FDS, with no one having to stand up in front of a cold audience and proclaim for the first time, "I am God's spokesman! Listen to me!" By the time they got around to officially saying it in print, the JW's as a group already believed it.

  Thanks for this topic, very interesting.

  Dave
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  garybuss

  
  For a paranoid delusional individual a messianic claim is very reasonable and not unusual. Many schizophrenics have grandiose delusions such as being on a mission for the deity they believe in. I have read Rutherford's writings and I can't believe those were written by a sane man.
  
  The current corporation has a huge publishing and real estate development empire based on the messianic mission claim. Under those circumstances, that's a claim worth defending (from a business standpoint). I think trying to understand the Witnesses people is like trying to understand an illness. We aren't looking at behaviors, we're looking at symptoms. Symptoms don't make rational sense apart from the disease they help identify, but when the symptoms are all laid out together it gives the rational observer a profile of the problem.
  
  Great thread! I love it!