Change another's views -- or not?

by CPiolo 14 Replies latest jw friends

  • CPiolo
    CPiolo

    A short while ago, Maximus and a few others were discussing the ethics of tying to influence another regarding their belief system. Many came down on the side of caution, if not downright abstention. If a person lived in a vacuum, I might be inclined to agree. In fact, most of the time, I do agree, and it is not often I bother trying to engage another in a conversation or debate about their belief system or religion. Frankly, I believe most people are literal sheep and just want a nice easy and comfortable place to go, where they don't have to make decisions for themselves, and where they can avoid responsibility and conflict. So most believe as their parents and family do, and never question what they've been taught or the group into which they've been inculcated.

    But none of us live in a vacuum. We almost all have friends, family, coworkers, acquaintances, and/or some type of social circle. We spend time with these people and interact with them, and we all interact in some way with society at large and the world as a whole. As part of various social groups, our belief system is going to affect the way we view the world, how we interact with the world, and who we choose to interact with. It can shape the decisions we make regarding education, career, medical treatment, and much more. Our belief system is, in effect, the lens through which we view the world.

    Some belief systems and/or the organizations that sustain them can be harmful. There are a plethora of such systems and organizations. Most people on this board were members of just such an organization.

    But determining the relative good or bad of a religion or organization is a difficult and highly subjective thing. Thankfully we now have a lot of information and resources to help with the process, but it's still a difficult and daunting task.

    For a interesting article regarding "Sowing the Seeds of Doubt," see the following article that I believe Kent of JanH already posted:

    http://secularsouth.org/show.php?column=facts_for_thought&story_id=19

    Even more difficult still is determining if changing someones belief will, in the end, result in a greater good for that person. I remember as a child in middle school, receiving visits from former drug addicts who had given up their habit due to the proselytizing efforts of a conservative Christian group. Listening to their testimonies, I could only think that they'd given up one addition for another; their dependence on drugs had been replace with a dependence on religion. Where these former drug addicts better off? I think they were, but I believe they could have been better still with a more balanced perspective.

    Anyone thinking of trying to change anothers beliefs has much to consider: Will a greater good be done? Are they trying to change the person's belief out of a sincere desire for the other person, or from an ego-driven desire to prove themselves right? Is there some sort of support system to help the person through the transition should they need it? Can you offer the person the tools, people, help, skills and so forth to make a decision for themselves regarding what they want to do after finding error in what they currently believe or to help them form new views? How will changing the persons beliefs affect their social circle and their relationship with family? Is the person capable, intellectually, emotionally and pschologically, of dealing with any adverse effects from friends, family or society at large that may occur due to evolving or changing beliefs? Are you sure their belief system is really that bad? Who are you to change another's cherished beliefs?

    These are not questions easily answered, and this is where my hesitation comes from. As humans, we all grow and change throughout our lives. We mature, we learn, we experience life in all the many ways it manifests itself to us. But none of us knows all or has all the answers. Some of us need to learn the hard way, while for others a simple illustration will do. Some learn quickly, while others take longer. Part of life is this process. By trying to influence another persons beliefs without their having asked, you may be interrupting their natural progression and growth as a human being. You may be causing them problems with friends, collegues and family. No one can possibly know exactly how our efforts towards changing someone else will turn out. In some areas the answers are fairly clear cut, but when it comes to religion and belief systems, the answers are not so clear cut.

    My personal situation does not allow me the luxury of just being and let be. My wife is a JW. We have a child together. Therefore, I have to think not only of my wife's well being, but my son's as well. I can see the harm my wife's beliefs do to her -- the emotional, pschological, intellectual and social dependence the organization creates in her, the irrational fears and phobias that plague her, the intolerance towards others, and the secondary ways these manifest themselves (nervousness, depression, panic attacks, reluctance to engage socially with those not of her kind, an inablility to make decisions for herself, and more). But given that alone, I hope she would, on her own, come to realize the role her belief system plays in this. I am not a pschologist and therefore unqualified to evaluate how best to help her. Being emotionally involved with my wife, further disqualifies me from making certain decision regarding her well being; It's often difficult to separate oneself completely in an unbiased way to help another when you are personally involved with the person. For that reason, it is unethical for doctors to treat members of their own family.

    There are probably many others like me. I have to weigh the good of my wife, along with the good of my son, not to mention my own good, and try to find some sort of balance that does the least harm and the most good. It's not an easy task by any means. However, as my wife doesn't live in a vacuum, and her participation with JWs does our relationship harm, and will do harm to our son if he is indoctrinated, I have been forced to make a determination about whether I will try to influence and change what my wife believes.

    In my best judgement, she needs to change her belief system for the greater good of our family. If we didn't have a child, my decision might be different. For while I am an object of her intolerance, even though she doesn't realize this or admit it to herself, my options are many without our child and I am capable of finding my own way through life. I don't need my wife's approval, even though I hope I have it on some level.

    My son is another story. He is still very young and entirely dependent upon my wife and I for all his needs. As well, as a parent, I believe it is my duty to prepare my son as best I can to be an independent human being, to give him the necessary skills and abilities to allow himself to find his way in the world, and to provide the means to do so. It isn't my duty to inflict my own personal viewpoint, opinions and prejudices upon him, but rather to allow him to develop his own while being there for him when he fails, and to help him up when he falls.

    I have, in a way, been forced to take a morally abiguous decision to try and help my wife to change her views. It's something I would much rather avoid, but something I've been forced to confront by circumstances, circumstances I am partially responsible for, as I will be responsilble for whatever comes form my efforts.

    CPiolo

    The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde

  • Francois
    Francois

    First, I'd react to your question, "who are you to change another's cherished belief system?" by saying that it's not I that effect that change; it's the person who is making the change. I may supply the basis for that change, but I don't make it. It's a well-known fact that you can't change anybody - as every woman who has decided that she's gonna change her man has discovered.

    You said, "we all grow and change throughout our lives." Where do you think the basis for that change comes from? What we read. What we see. What we experience. What we are told by others. We change as a result of living, and interacting with people is a part of that living.

    Having said that, however, I personally feel that unless you have something to replace the beliefs you seek to undermine you are perhaps doing an injustice to that person. Thus care must be taken when you undertake to change someone.

    And I'd point out that Jesus and all the apostles were out changing as many as they could. And we are charged to do the same: to preach in other words. What is preaching if not to effect a change in someone else's thinking?

    Who am I to [attempt] to change someone else's cherished beliefs? I'm the guy to whom it was commanded to go out and make disciples (along with lots of others I might add).

    Given the command of Jesus, I wonder who you are to tell Christians they may not do as they have been commanded. Can you comment on that?

    Francois

    Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.

  • CPiolo
    CPiolo

    Francoise:

    {quote]First, I'd react to your question, "who are you to change another's cherished belief system?" by saying that it's not I that effect that change; it's the person who is making the change. I may supply the basis for that change, but I don't make it. It's a well-known fact that you can't change anybody - as every woman who has decided that she's gonna change her man has discovered.

    What I'm talking about is a concerted intentional effort to change someone's beliefs or to influence them to change them themselves. You're correct, we can't change others, we can only help them change themselves. What I was asking is by what right do I do this.

    You said, "we all grow and change throughout our lives." Where do you think the basis for that change comes from? What we read. What we see. What we experience. What we are told by others. We change as a result of living, and interacting with people is a part of that living.

    Again, I'm talking about an intentional effort. We all talk, read, pass on information and so forth in the daily activity and interaction of our lives. Normally, when I do so, I am not attempting to influence or change those with whom I interact. Clearly, I do so, but that is unavoidable. But there is no intent and no attempt to change. I do so often to change and challenge myself and in an effort that I may learn and grow. I don't usually offer help unless it's asked for.

    The road to self-discovery and knowledge is often instigated by the individual him/herself. It's a series of accidents and choices that lead us where we go. The road to ignorance is the same, a choice by the individual to not pursue growth and knowledge. If that's someone's choice, so be it.

    Having said that, however, I personally feel that unless you have something to replace the beliefs you seek to undermine you are perhaps doing an injustice to that person. Thus care must be taken when you undertake to change someone.

    Agreed and stated in other language in my original post.

    And I'd point out that Jesus and all the apostles were out changing as many as they could. And we are charged to do the same: to preach in other words. What is preaching if not to effect a change in someone else's thinking?

    Agreed again, and one of the reasons I disagree with missionary/preaching work. One look at missionary work the world over (by whatever belief system ) and you see wholesale destruction of peoples and their culture, who have often survived quite well and quite happily for sometime until someone imposed their system upon them. It matters not the good or bad intentions of those trying to convert. This is, of course, the history of mankind, might is right and might has more often than not determined the belief system of the day.

    Who am I to [attempt] to change someone else's cherished beliefs? I'm the guy to whom it was commanded to go out and make disciples (along with lots of others I might add).

    And the one of the very reasons I began to question the morality of Christianity. You even said care needs to be taken in such an undertaking, but from what I've seen and learned (and I've got a lot more to learn), care is rarely taken.

    Given the command of Jesus, I wonder who you are to tell Christians they may not do as they have been commanded. Can you comment on that?[/quote]

    It is debatable whether Jesus wanted his followers to form another domineering religious system or whether it was his message of love and tolerance he wanted spread. He did live and die a Jew and not a Christian. Where is the command to form a Church?

    Again, part of the reason I began questioning Christian morality.

    CPiolo

    The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde

  • gsark
    gsark

    Every man, woman or child who ever lived with a batterer,or molester knows you cannot change people. The Jehovah's Witnesses are learning to their incredible embarrassment that they cannot 'change' hardened pedophiles who in fact may have been attracted to their organization in the first place because of this vey view.

    What you can do is ascertain the reason your wife is interested in Witnesses/Witnessing in the first place. Nobody just wakes up someday and decides to become a member of this religion, including many people who were 'born' into it. Something is missing in their life, and they think the Witnesses have it. Does this person feel (rightly or wrongly) that they are not loved enough, that their opinions and feelings don't matter enough? You have it within your power to see if this is so, and maybe help your spouse find these thing. How about encouraging the spouse to take up a hobby, or go back to school, or maybe move or remodel or redecorate the house, anything distracting. I know for a fact that works!

    Something that works unbelievably well is compromise. Remember, JW's tell eveyone that all non-JW's are under Satan's control, that they will be persecutors, that they're going to die,die die. I have known 'mixed' couples to agree that the child/children can go to the bookstudy because it is in a small family environment and is only an hour. Some have also agreed that a child may attend the public (often Sunday) talk because it is only 45 minutes.

    These compromises gives the 'other mate' the opportunity to 'Witness' in their own way, because 1) this tells the mate and the other JW's that hey, I thought unbelievers were persecutors for Satan,what's up here. This puts you in control. 2)it teaches the child that there is another way besides the JW's, and that it works as well if not better. (In my personal opinion, the public talk and the bookstudy are the weaker spiritual food anyway, your best shot).

    Those are just examples, and I have personally seen them work, and I have used these techniques in my own family with great success. When there is love, warmth, emotional support, tolerance, flexibility, openmindedness,and room for spiritual and emotional growth etc in the family home, the JW's don't look so good. If there is intolerance, no compromise, no spiritual or intellectual freedom of expressions, loud arguments, bad language, just think how good the Witnesses will look then.

    I hope this, or some variation of it helps.

    Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!

  • Marilyn
    Marilyn

    Dear CP, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post. Perhaps you're not 100% correct in your opinions - but I don't know who is. I just enjoyed your willingness to see both sides. I'm so sorry for your situation - another thought might be that even if you can get thru to your wife re the problems with her religion, there isn't something trouble free waiting here on the outside for her to join up to. Life is difficult - whether you are deluded by religion or not. I'm speaking as one who left the Org with my husband twenty years ago, when our children were very little. My husband is a Phd academic, with a load of commonsense to boot. I'm a fairly sensible person and our son and daughter appear to have turned out halfway decent! We are comfortably off, and thus far in good health. Just the same, life requires concentration and enginuity. It's no picnic for many. Sometimes I wish I had some delusion left to me, but all I have is my 5.30 glass of wine, which I'm not even supposed to partake of because of a family medical condidtion. :-(

    I'm beginning to think that we need more practical advice for people coming out of our old religion. Coping skills by psychologists, exercise regimes to help cope with the anxiety of reality, and financial advice for those who are hopelessly behind. And yes I even think that for many, it's best we leave them where they are - as the transition is just too hard.

    Marilyn

  • Tina
    Tina

    (((((((((((cpiolo)))))))))))))Hi!

    Determining if an individual might have a higher quality life would be the basis for challenging their belief system.Considering all the life choices affected by the wts we know their quality of life is pretty low.

    Creating a favourable climate to present info is essential. This is a climate of nurturance.Help the individual(your wife) in this case see that she IS a choice maker. That she has the ability to make different life choices. That she doesnt have to remain passively at the mercy of such a corrupt and dysfunctional belief system.

    Become a resource person, a networker for her regarding support. There are groups out there that cover dependency issues(wts). Also one on one therapy as a safe and neutral place while undergoing the emotional and psychological upheavels leaving may bring.
    A therapist can also model new or better social skills that will help her adjust and re-connect to the world around her.

    Reconnecting and using socialization skills are practiced by being involved in a volunteer group,maybe an evening class,something that hgolds her interest and involves relating to people again(sorry JW's dont count as normal socializers in my book)
    She could learn specific coping,communication skills needed for family situations.
    All these facets of recovery take time and effort,but well worth the journey.......as she gets to learn about herself and the world around her,she'll be too busy(hopefully) to fall for another religious trap....
    Change is risky,but so is everything in life. In this case the benefit is a quality,full actualized free life.I personally cant think of any good reason unless one is so dysfunctional to need such a heavily structured enviornment to remain in any cult.
    Wishing you and your family the best,Tina

    Just some thoughts,Tina

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Damn Sis,

    ***Sometimes I wish I had some delusion left to me, but all I have is my 5.30 glass of wine, which I'm not even supposed to partake of because of a family medical condidtion. :-( ***

    Ain't it the truth. You finally work out all the delusions, you turn around and your 50yr old! I say it just is not fair.

    If I can ever get the 'cheeky one' and his lady, you and your good fellow..to visit California (wine capital of the world..aheehem..ok you Ozzies are starting to make a impact) we will set the clock at 5:30 (12:00 noon) rent a limo, and tour at least 6 of the 60-70 wineries in my back yard. What say you? When you coming?

    I think you are absolutely on target, life does represent enough challenges and roadblocks, without adding the extra burden of some know it all religionist or organization telling you that you must subscribe. So I unsubsribed to every magazine accept Wine Spectator, hell even they tell me that 'you MUST try this wine or that'...you just can't win for losing.

    Regards

    Danny

  • Marilyn
    Marilyn

    ::::::::::::::Nobody just wakes up someday and decides to become a member of this religion, including
    many people who were 'born' into it. Something is missing in their life, and they think the Witnesses
    have it. Does this person feel (rightly or wrongly) that they are not loved enough, that their opinions
    and feelings don't matter enough?

    Dear gsark, I think you and I hold totally opposing opinions. I hope I don't offend you by expressing mine. IF people become JWs or whatever, because of something lacking in their lives, how do you explain pockets of JWs (or whoever) in our communities? These pockets consist of relatives, husbands or wives of JWs and their children. Then there are their neighbours and friends - I converted my neighbour and my work mate and my boyfriend - all of whom were regular people, who had the unfortunate expience of knowing me. Me being a magnetic personality who went to town on them!!! My boy friend (now husband of many years, is one of the most stable people (a professor of education) I've ever met. As smart as he was at the time, he had no previous experience to call on to protect himself from a pretty young woman who he hoped to have sex with, if he just played his cards rightl. I droned on and on and on and then some, and eventually I turned his mind. You've seen the routine in operation? He objected, I ignored his objections - and kept repeating the same crap until he became familiar with it and eventually the familiarity became confused with reality. And my poor boy friend was in!! or under or hooked!! The funny thing is that ten years later when I told him I was having difficulties with it - he, an MS, just said that's ok, cause I am too. He was happy to leave just as easily as he was talked into it.

    Personally I think we all possess the qualities of vulnerability and mood disorders etc that could be blamed on our willingness to join a cult. But more than anything, I believe it's a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Other people get conned out of money, or into marrying unwisely or into wrong careers or into buying houses - into all sorts of things. Being converted to JWism was just our bad luck. No weaknesses, just bad luck, bad timing, and too bad.

    Marilyn

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Marylin,

    You are very wise.

    ***But more than anything, I believe it's a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. ***

    Here is how I became a third generation JW.

    Grandfather a Methodist minister in South Dakota..hear's about the no-hell fire CTR message...walks 60 miles to attend a colporter's lecture..returns to his pulpit and announces that he no longer will preach Methodist doctrine..next thing you know he's out doing colporter work.

    Grandmother follow's suit, teaches my mother...she joins Bethel in her twenties, my father already at Bethel with a similar background, sparks fly..1,2,3 sisters and then baby DannyBear all fine jw material. By this time there is probably just an estimate, of all the direct and indirect family, including aunts, uncles 100+ JW's. Not to mention all the new additions from my sister's children. I can safely say that not one of them, ever took the time to really research, verify, and check any of facts...we all just jumped on the band wagon.

    I think you have nailed it, we are at the mercy of time and unforseen occurence. Sheer luck? Well we as a family have not had such a good run for the last 90 + years...Oh well that's life!

    Danny

  • Marilyn
    Marilyn

    Oh DannyB, it's always so nice to see you! (figuratively)

    The wine district of California sounds wonderful. I'd be seriously interested to see if you Americans are keeping pace with us Aussies. :-) I've drunk plenty of French wine (hell, why be modest? I've tried Chilian, Italian, Spanish, German, American, Portuguese, NZ and Aussie wines aplenty ) and I wouldn't give you tuppence for French wine. Cept their champers of course. They make the best champagne!! I'm not sure if we don't develop a taste for our own countries wine. I think Australian wine is superb and better than all the rest. But is that because it suits the Australian lifestyle, diet etc? Sadly I'm off wine at the moment. I'm begining to think there are no pleasures left in life! Enjoyable food is bad for my HDL or LDL or whatever the L it is!!! And before you say sex - that's not as good without some wining and dining first!! (yeah I know you men think these are unnecessary optional extras - but us ladies like some romance as a side serve!!)

    With regards how contageous JWism is - as with disease, there has to be a predisposition (a mutant gene). Looks like your family should get tested - they might have developed a vaccine for it?!! I should do a count of my lot. We aren't too far behind you. What ticks me off is when I find the really intelligent ones (I'm thinking my cousin's husband) has now come on board. I would never have thought it. There is only one cousin left in the whole bloody lot of them who hasn't succumbed (besides me who succumbed but didn't stay the distance). Oh, and one niece has quit. Mmmm, thinks are looking up!!!

    Marilyn

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