CHEERS MATE! (an experience with jdubs at a stag)

by in a new york bethel minute 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • in a new york bethel minute
    in a new york bethel minute

    a couple of years ago a cousin of mine was getting married, so the boys had a little stag party for him. nothing major, just some drinking and a couple of rounds of pool. as we received our drinks at the bar, i naturally raised my glass to clink it with theirs. only one or two out of the group of about 8 declined. my uncle all but had to say it was now a conscience matter for the two to give in to clinking glasses with the rest of us. most of my cousins and uncles who were there are ministerial servants or elders, and they had no problem with it. all but my brother and i and two of our uncles (one was the school overseer and the other was the P.O. at the time) got way out of hand with their drinking. of course, since it was in the family, a blind eye was taken and nothing came of it.

    my brother and i have always been looked down upon for being "less spiritual", yet we maintained our sobriety when it was the norm to get out of hand. i'm not saying i never get drunk, because i do. but i wanted to set an example for christian behaviour and somehow it went unnoticed. this sort of thing helps to solidify the fact that this cult is a haven for those who can keep the outside of the cup clean... for those who can put on a show when needed.

    it just bugs me when people preach one thing and do another. none of what went on that night would have bothered me if they didn't preach as much as they do and look down on my brother and i the way they always have.

    bethel

    P.S. anyone know the roots of the "glass-clinking thing" and whether or not it actually IS a conscience matter now?

  • TheEdge
    TheEdge

    I think the 'glass clinking thing' is to scare off demons - seems to work a treat then, as I haven't seen a demon in all the time I'VE been drinking!

  • rwagoner
    rwagoner

    I always understood that the clinking was a sign of trust....

    Each clinked their glasses and a little of the contents went into the others glass. This showed their willingness to drink the others drink...thus showing it was free of any poisons, etc.

    Could be wrong...but that is what I have been told....

    RandyW

  • TheEdge
    TheEdge

    ..........and I haven't seen any demons when I HAVEN'T been drinking either - I lead a very unadventurous life .

  • what_Truth?
    what_Truth?

    IANYBM, good for you in setting a Christian example, but cut your relatives some slack. If you had to live under the ridiculous rules and restrictions that they put themselves under wouldn't you also be getting drunk at every opportunity?

    Hell, if I was an elder I'd be doing shots while giving the public talk.

  • avishai
    avishai

    Well, that's one of the reason's I left. I refused to live a double life. I could'nt be a hypocrite. If I was gonna party and cuss, dammit, I was'nt gonna wake up and go out in service the next F*&(in day, like the guys I knew in the hall!!!!

  • bikerchic
    bikerchic

    In regards to "toasting" this is the latest info from the 1994 WT: There was't any info later than this.

    Some Christian wives have thus agreed to attend social functions to which their husbands have been invited. But they still resolve never to compromise their faith. Jane took time to talk to her husband about this. She kindly explained that she was willing to attend but did not want her presence to embarrass him. "I knew that occasionally all present are expected to stand and take part in a toast. I had learned that allegiance is due only to Jehovah, and toasting was much more than simply showing respect. My husband realized how awkward the situation could be, so he simply said: ?Don?t come!? I obeyed."

    Glenys, on the other hand, accompanied her husband to such a function, but she watched the officers at the head of the table. When she saw them preparing to toast, she discreetly left for the rest room! Yes, these women adapted themselves but never compromised.

    Wow how bold of these sisters, not!

    This from the 1952 WT:

    ?

    Is it proper to propose or to drink toasts to God or Christ or the Kingdom??J. S., Pennsylvania.

    Sometimes toasts are proposed, and members of the group feel obliged to join in. This practice is rooted far back in paganism. The Babylonians drank toasts to their gods, and ended up drunk. The Bible gives an account of one such instance. In 539 B.C. Belshazzar ordered the holy vessels of the Hebrews? temple service brought out, and from them he and his party of revelers "drank wine, and praised the gods". (Dan. 5:1-4) Such toast-drinking is in no way comparable with the drink offerings Jehovah God prescribed for his temple service. When the Greeks gave entertainments and got tipsy thereat, it was for pious reasons: they were drinking deeply in honor of their pagan gods. After the Greeks, the Romans followed similar pagan religious customs of drinking toasts to the gods. Of course, they had so many gods that everyone was drunk before the ritual ended. Also, human heroes were toasted as well.

    The Scandinavians before conversion to Christ gathered for drinking bouts, and toasted Odin, Njord and Frey. Christian missionaries were unable to abolish these customs, but the toasts were shifted to "honor" God and Christ and various patron saints, and to gain salvation for their souls. The future state of bliss was associated with constant drinking and much intoxication. Jehovah God and Christ Jesus are not honored by having pagan customs of toasting switched to them, or to humans. God?s Word the Bible instructs us in the way to honor him, and we do not add to his Word on this point, and especially not when the addition comes from pagan customs. In shunning this custom of toasting, along with many other objectionable customs, we may appear narrow-minded to worldlings. So we are. But never forget for a moment that our Christian narrowness is our salvation, just as the world?s broadness is its destruction.?Matt. 7:13, 14.

    This from the 1968 Questions from Readers, WT:

    ***

    w68 1/1 pp. 31-32 Questions from Readers ***

    Questions

    from Readers

    ?

    Is it proper for Christians to "drink a toast" when they get together??M. D., U.S.A.

    In some lands, when acquaintances are about to part, they have a parting drink of some alcoholic beverage, with glasses raised and touched together and accompanied with an expression of ?to your health? or something similar. At wedding receptions frequently a toast is similarly offered to the health and happiness of the newlyweds. Understandably, some have questioned whether it would be Scripturally proper for Christians to share in such toasts.

    Certainly there is nothing wrong with a Christian?s wishing a friend happiness and good health. Nor would it be improper to do so as a group. The spiritually older men in the first century concluded a letter to the Christian congregations with an expression meaning, essentially, "Good health to you!"?Acts 15:29.

    But is that all there is to "toasting"? Why do the toasters raise their glasses, or lift their mugs and clink them together? Is it in imitation of some custom? Note what The Encyclopædia Britannica, 11 th Ed., Volume 13, page 121, says:

    "The custom of drinking ?health? to the living is most probably derived from the ancient religious rite of drinking to the gods and the dead. The Greeks and Romans at meals poured out libations to their gods, and at ceremonial banquets drank to them and to the dead." Then, after showing how such pagan customs survived among Scandinavian and Teutonic peoples, this reference work adds: "Intimately associated with these quasi-sacrificial drinking customs must have been the drinking to the health of living men."

    When most people join in a "toast" they probably do not imagine that they might be copying the custom of lifting up a libation or liquid sacrifice to pagan gods, yet that could be so. Without question, a faithful Christian would not share in an actual pagan sacrifice, realizing that "you cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons." (1 Cor. 10:21) A mature Christian would also avoid even imitating false religious rituals. This spiritually mature course would please Jehovah. Remember, God specifically warned the Israelites against copying religious practices of the pagan nations round about them.?Lev. 19:27; 21:5.

    If a Christian is going to make a request for divine blessing on another, then an appropriate way to do that is through heartfelt prayer to God, not by following traditions based on pagan worship that Jehovah abhors.?Phil. 1:9; 2 Cor. 1:11.

    Customs and traditions abound all over the earth. If a mature Christian knew that a particular one was directly based on false religion, obviously he would avoid it. But not all customs are objectionable. Some may simply be local practices or etiquette without a false religious origin, such as greeting by shaking hands or bowing. (Gen. 23:7) Each individual can consider what he knows about a particular custom and his own motive with regard to it. Just why is he doing it? He might also ask himself, ?Will doing this stumble others, or will people in the community link my actions with false religion?? (1 Cor. 10:32, 33) No one else can serve as the conscience for a particular Christian; hence each one can think the matter over and make a decision so as to have a clear conscience.?Acts 23:1; 2 Cor. 1:12.

    Well it seems to be the tipical wishy washy JW think, anything to be different and keep the peeples in line.

    I never knew it was wrong to clink glasses and did it all the time even with elders anniversary celebrations. My bad.

    Kate

  • freedom96
    freedom96

    In the halls I went to, any sort of toasting or clinking of glasses was a big time no no.

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    After the article g00 1/8 27 A Balanced View of Popular Customs, which contained the statement: " it is more important to consider what the custom means to people at the time and in the place where one now lives" (emphasis in original), various JWs wrote to the WTS and asked whether toasting was now allowable. The responses they got back basically said that it was okay. None of those letters was ever published by the WTS, however.

    I've had this confirmed by several independent sources, and it's spread pretty widely through the JW grapevine. But old habits die hard, and I think it will be a long time before you see a toast at a JW wedding.

  • bikerchic
    bikerchic

    LOL Euph!

    I've had this confirmed by several independent sources, and it's spread pretty widely through the JW grapevine. But old habits die hard, and I think it will be a long time before you see a toast at a JW wedding.

    When I posted that I "clinked glasses" at many an anniversary celebrations with Elders and such it was during the time I was married to my X who participated and many times gave a long winded speech to the toasting.

    Came back to bite him big time when our daughter asked him to buy the champagne for her wedding toast at her wedding and he wanted to opt out saying that JW's don't do toasting. Well she didn't let him off the hook she reminded him that she wasn't a JW and wasn't having a typical JW wedding and she wanted to have a champagne toast at her wedding and she remembered many a time when he offered such toasting in his own home with JW's. Needless to say he bought the champagne.

    **Clink* *

    Mama didn't raise no fools!

    Kate

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