Is Baptism a contract?? If so, are minors able to give legal consent??

by coult9056 30 Replies latest jw friends

  • coult9056
    coult9056

    Dear Friends,

    I believe the Judicial Committee wheels are starting to turn. Let me explain why. On Monday, February 14, 2005, my local newspaper published a story entitled "Bloodless Medicine" which implied how Jehovah's Witnesses have pushed for bloodless surgeries. The article implied that JWs have a total ban on blood transfusions. Because I know that is not true, and because I want JWs to know they have options (blood fractions, etc.), and because I hope JWs and others outside of the WTBS will see that the blood ban should be I abandonded altogether, I wrote a response letter to the editor which was published on Saturday, February 20, 2005. (The letter is below, in its entirety.)

    The letter began "Formerly a faithful witness....." That line, apparently, has got the JC wheels rolling. Outside a grocer store yesterday, an elder approached me and talked to me for about twenty minutes. He let me know that he had heard about the letter; that it had already been discussed. After discussing with him all of the many reasons that I now believe that the society version of the so-called truth is simply not true, he pratically begged me to allow him and another brother to have a meeting with me. (They need two witness to disfellowship for abandoning your faith.)

    Anyway, at the end of the conversation, he reminded me of my baptism and dedication. I told him that I was 15 years old when I was baptized and made the lifelong dedication. I reminded him that at age 15, a person is not allowed to drive, to vote, to give consent for sex, or to sign a legally binding contract. ?So,? I asked him, ?Why should I be obligated to a dedication I made when I was 15 years old??

    Think about it. The society doesn't want its youth to date or to get married until past the "bloom of youth." But I have seen young people in the organization get baptized as early as 11 or 12 years old. And baptism and dedication is supposed to be the most important decision of one's life, even more important than marriage.

    Although the society doesn't believe in infant baptism, they will hold a person in their 20s or 30s or older to a decision they made when they were 11 or 12 (or 15) years old and disfellowship them when they get old enough and wise enough to get out of the organization.

    I haven't been to a meeting in years and I do not consider myself one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I believe the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a cult and that blind faith is the cornerstone of every "good" witness. However, I don't really want to be disfellowshipped. I like the idea that I can still talk to JWs I see around town, although word is geting around that I'm an opposer.

    I have done a little research on legal action against the WTBS in matters of disfellowshipping. I printed off a 9-page letter from www.randytv.com/secret/dfletter1987.htm which showed the case law precedents which are clearly in the society's favor in the matter of disfellowshipping their members.

    However, I have not seen or read anything about legal action against the society in the area of contract law. I think that if a court viewed baptism as a contract, then the society would no longer be able to disfellowship any one of their members who was ever baptized as a minor. Since a minor can't enter into a legally binding contract, I don't think it's that big of a jump to think that a minor shouldn't be able to enter into a contract-like relationship with the WTBS.

    What does everyone else think?

    P.S. Good news all....This former janitor/pioneer was just accepted into law school a couple of weeks ago!!! Maybe I'm already thinking like a lawyer.

    Lafayette, IN. Journal and Courier, February 14, 2005

    Dear Editor: Formerly a faithful Jehovah's Witness, I was drawn to Tuesday's article "Bloodless Medicine" (J&C February 15). The article implied that Jehovah's Witnesses have an outright ban on blood transfusions. While many Jehovah's Witnesses believe this is true, in the June 15, 2000 issue of the Watchtower magazine, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the legal name for Jehovah's Witnesses, loosened the ban to allow transfusions of what they call "blood fractions."

    Quoting the Watchtower: "Jehovah's Witnesses refuse transfusions of both whole blood and its primary blood components. The Bible directs Christians to 'abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from fornication.' (Acts 15:29) Beyond that, when it comes to fractions of any of the primary components, each Christian, after careful and prayerful meditation, must conscientiously decide for himself. [...] Some Christians may conclude that [...] they could accept a blood fraction derived from blood plasma or cells."

    So transfusions of whole blood are wrong, but fractions are okay? It is an overwhelming sadness to know that good people die and allow their chidren to die because they adhere to such a curious policy. Concerning the Jehovah's Witness policy on banning whole blood, but banning blood fractions, a former member of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, Raymond Franz, said "It is as if a person were instructed by a doctor to stop eating ham and cheese sandwiches, but told that it is acceptable to take the sandwich apart and eat the bread, the ham and the cheese separately, not as a sandwich." (In Search of Christian Freedom, Ray Franz, Commentary Press, 1999, page 288).
  • Big Dog
    Big Dog

    If you follow the premise that baptism is a legal contract, under US law a minor can enter into a binding contract.

  • willyloman
    willyloman

    9056: In my opinion, such a baptism should be non-binding, but I'm not sure if the courts have ruled on that. I assure you that the WTS and your local elders won't buy it; they will insist that it's a bona fide agreement and act accordingly.

    I applaud you for sending in a letter to the editor the way you did and for the character you showed in not allowing this kind of JW "disinformation" to run rampant in the public press. I have often thought that there should be some sort of volunteer "agency" that systematically reponds to media coverage of JWs and "clarifies" or tells the other side of the story. Thanks for assuming the responsibility to act when it happened in your community.

  • in a new york bethel minute
    in a new york bethel minute

    they try to make it like everyone is free to do what they want... but i know people who have been disfellowshipped at 14 years of age. can you imagine that?

  • garybuss
    garybuss



    I'd sue the Witnesses if they quit shunning me. Being shunned by the Witness people is the best thing that has ever happened to my family. I don't like the Witness people, I don't like them talking to us, and I insist they shun us. They started the shunning but it has been a blessing and I intend to continue it. No way would I ever want them to quit shunning. It's the one thing they have done to me that I have appreciated.

    As far as Witness baptism, I was coerced into subjecting myself to their baptism at age 12 by my parents who are barely smarter than a barnyard animal. It has no meaning to me and neither do they. It was a bad deal by bad people. I am happy they revealed their true nature to my family. They will not be missed.




  • HadEnuf
    HadEnuf

    Hey coult: First: What a gutsy thing to do with responding to that article with an open letter. I raise my glass of beer to you!

    Second: Congrats on the Law School thing. Very impressive. I raise another glass of beer to you!

    Thirdly (is that a word? Thirdly?): I agree with you wholeheartedly on the "getting baptized at a young age" thing; when you have to be 18 to get married (without parental consent), vote, etc., and 21 to drink, in our State. Did I know what I was getting into when I was baptized at the age of 15? Heck no. Did my husband, at the tender age of 12, know what he was getting into? Heck no.

    But it seems to be a point of pride for JW parents to get their kids baptized as young as possible. I have even heard experiences at conventions of how wonderful it is when 9 year olds get baptized. It's INSANE. Then they hold you to your "vows"...even though you knew nothing of what would be in your future and what would be involved in making such a "serious" decision. Now I'm gonna drink to myself!

    Cathy L.

  • Big Dog
    Big Dog

    Coult9056, for some reason when I first looked at your post the bulk of the text didn't show up and I thought you were asking a question, so disregard my comment from above, you reasoned it out pretty well for yourself.

    Congratulations on law school, it will be three intense years I can tell you, and the bar exam, torture. If you ever have any questions don't be afraid to ask me, I'll give you what ever help I can.

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Hello and welcome Coult, Ordinarily a person under 18 is protected by laws applying to rights of minors. However, A judge will not force a blood transfusion on a 15 year old if after interviewing the youth he feels they are mature and it is sincerely their belief. He is in the position of taking rights away from a young adult and appropriately approaches cautiously. The opposite is true of legally binding an adult to a contract made by a 15 year old. Who knows years later if they were mature or if they were sincere in their decision to 'contract' with the Watchtower. What is boils down to is what did this person do upon or before becoming an adult? How old were you when you left the WT? The problem with most incidents is what did the young baptized person do as a legal adult. If they did not openly renounce their former baptism, which will result in DFing, then their silence is taken by the courts as acceptance and confirmation of their decision made as a child. There is more than one law firm posed to take on the WT on this matter but they are presently inundated with other lawsuits already filed against the WT. It will probably be a couple of years before they will be ready to present a few test cases to the courts. Any of you young people who got baptized while very young, who desperately want out without being DF'd. you may have a chance by consulting the right attorney NOW, and taking the right course Before becoming a legal adult. If you are seriously interested in this course, PM me and I will give you a lead. Remember, though, I do not know of any law firm ready at this time to take this matter to court. But it may be worth looking into. jst2laws

  • Uzzah
    Uzzah

    Coult:

    This has been examined in the past and essentially your argumentation would be considered valid if a minor walked away after getting baptized and the Society disfellowshipped them while they were still a minor.

    Some courts have indicated that if you decided to continue your association after becoming an adult that decision being voluntary, your subjection to their rules and displinary procedures is your own choice and the courts would not get involved.

    Interestingly, in the Vicki Boer decision (WE LOVE YOU VICKI!) the judge inferred and directly stated elsewhere in her decision that although Vicki was an adult, she was heavily influenced and pressured by the church community and did not have the freedom of choice we presume all Canadians enjoy. Based on those comments by Her Honour it would be an interesting legal argument about whether any 'born in' JW could be said to have made a competant personal decision about dedication as a minor or as a young adult.

    So if you are an adult, I doubt you have much of a legal leg to stand on. But defammation of character if something is announced or how it might affect your business (showing actual damages/harm done to you by their actions) is also anthoer angle (per Barb and Joe Anderson's case).

    Hope this is of some help.

    Uzzah

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    I'd sue the Witnesses if they quit shunning me.

    Gary, you are my hero!

    Congrats on the letter and on law school, Coult!

    Trouble is, religions (and to a lesser extent, any private clubs) are allowed to make up any wacky rules they want. Today they only shun baptized folks, but who's to say they won't raise the bar one day and shun anybody that isn't a Witness, unless you're officially engaged in field service? Could the court make them stop doing it?

    It's almost as if two childhood friends agreed to be friends forever, provided they both always liked cheesecake. Then at 20, one of them admitted she didn't like it anymore and her friend abandoned her. Could the court force her to be friends anyway?

    Good luck! Knock 'em dead, and go through their pockets for loose change!

    Dave

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