Abbot and Costello---Hey they knew who was on First.
Moe, Larry and Curly lets not forget Shemp,
and we all know the Marx brothers had something
to do with it, what do you think Harpo was doing
in his spear time he couldn't talk.
Who Were the NWT Translators?
by AlanF 25 Replies latest jw friends
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crossroads
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ozziepost
Scholar, Welcome to an aussie newbie to this happy happening place.
In your apparent support for the NWT you claim "This means that for eternity the greatest translation ever devised constitutes a memorial to the Author of the Holy S criptures, Jehovah God."
in light of that, how is it possible that such an enlightened translation should be evolving? In my post the other day concerning Colossian 1:16 as quoted in the September 1 issue of The Watchtower I stated:
Did you notice the revision? This verse is one of several containing the addition of the word "other". The addition of the word makes a lot of difference to the meaning each time it's inserted, just as it does in this instance, for it seems to support the notion that Jesus is a created being, not begotten.
Why the revision? Past copies of the New World Translation at least are honest enough to show the word 'other' in brackets, acknowledging that the word is inserted into the original text. But apparently the revision stops that and shows the word as part of the original scripture text.
Notice how this revision is then used in the "Answer" given in this QFR.
Jehovah used his only-begotten Son as the master worker in creating all other things, that is, all things besides Jesus himself. Rightly, the Son derives pleasure from these works, and in this sense they are "for" him.
In case we have missed the point of their assertion, the concluding sentence reads:
It is in this sense that Colossians 1:16 says: "All other things have been created through him and for him."
The Kingdom Interlinear Translation gives the Greek original text as reading: "because in him it was created the all in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or governments or authorities; the all through him and into him it has been created".
Scholar, I'm sure you sincerely believe that the NWT is the best translation, but in view of the above, please consider these remarks of our Lord Jesus in referring to those who add to the inspired word:
"I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll." - Revelation 22:18,19
Cheers,
Ozzie"You can know the law by heart, without knowing the heart of it"
Philip Yancey, What's So Amazing About Grace? -
Cygnus
It has been intimated to me that there were several persons on the 'translation team' besides Fred Franz. Obviously the other fellows -- Schroeder, Klein, Gangas, etc. -- had nothing to do with translation but served in administrative capacities.
Just as the Writing Committee doesn't do all the writing for the magazines, neither was the Translation Committee for the NWT solely responsible for the translation work.
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logical
Kent
As long as your fat I will continue what I am doing.
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Rex B13
Re: Who Were the NWT Translators? Jul 20, 2001 7:23:48 PM
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You said:
>Alan F
You list the names of six members of the Bethel family who are rumoured to be the members of the NWT committee. This disagrees with the list of four names stated by Raymond Franz in his COC page 50, 2nd edition, 1992. Whis is the correct list? I put it to you that your sources are unreliable even if they are well meaning, such is merely secondhand opinion or simply rumour.James Penton in his Apocalypse Delayed could not provide any evidence as to the identity of the committee. This is somewhat surprising as he is a competent historian of JW history, lived in somewhat close geographical proximity to the US and Canadian Bethels and no doubt would have had numerous sources and contacts. Yet he only refers to the list given on p. 50 in COC. How can this be?
Under a previous heading on this board 'Accuracy of Bible Translation', I commented that it is somewhat strange that in the likely event that there was archival material of the NWT committee in Bethel that this was mot referred to by Raymond Franz who one would have thought because of his status would have have access to it.
I queried as to why Franz did not provide any ORAL or WRITTEN material that could be used as evidence in a future public forum. In his COC, he gives an excellent account of oral converations, copies of letters and other confidential memos etc. He has a good memory in that he recalls even converations between his colleagues who were supposed members of the NWT committee.In your reply to this matter, you stated that it was because of a "fanatical devotion to secrecy" as an explanation. Surely, you must appreciate that organizations of whatever type possess at various levels, a measure of secrecy. Why even many families have their secrets. Apart from this, the organization is bureaucratic. This means there is much attention to records, archives, memos, correspondence etc. In short, one must logically expect that somewhere in Bethel there is documention in some form that does or may establish the identity of the committee. If in fact no such documentaion exists. then one may assume that NWT committee existed or exists outside of Bethel but not independent of it.
In fact, in your earlier post , you refer to such documentation but you provide no details. It is somewhat amazing with the number of people who have left and are no longer associated with the Society why they have not blown the whistle so to speak. Even Franz did not feel unashamed in revealing the contents of private conversations that would have been an embarrassment for such prominent individuals.
My thoughts:
Well, you exposed Alan's usual style of drawing attention to himself by pretending to be an 'insider' and he has fooled a lot of people!Then you said:
The committe wished that their anonymity be protected even after their death. This means that one of life's greatest secrets will be eternally preseved. This means that for eternity the greatest translation ever devised constitutes a memorial to the Author of the Holy Scriptures, Jehovah God.My thoughts:
Evidently, you have never read the mountainous evidence of the MISTRANSLATION and pathetic bias of the NWT to it's own theology. In contrast, most Bibles are translated using teams of scholars and specialists who are known for their integrity and honesty.
A scholar who is also a 'trinitarian' is just that because he sees the truth of the trinity in scripture. He is not a biased 'trinitarian' when it comes to literal and contextual translating. Those who have no integrity are soon discredited, guys like Greg Stafford and Ralf Furoli are prime examples. Fred Franz much vaunted 'hebrew' knowledge was much bolstered by already translated english Bibles.
Take a look at similiar available literal translations of the era and see where the NWT is almost the same EXCEPT for the verses that it chooses to mistranslate!
Later,
Rex -
reagan_oconnor
Hey! Who needs experience with translating when you've got "Jehovah's Spirit" guiding your efforts? [8>]
I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul. -
AlanF
I have to say, scholar, you're typically JW in your attempt to discredit by implication. Have you been taking lessons from the Writing Department? Your post contains virtually no information, but a number of dark implications.
The list of four NWT translators given by Raymond Franz is correct as far as it goes, but is obviously incomplete. So what? Do you have information that shows that the list I presented is incorrect? If so, then let's have it. If not, then I don't care about your opinions.
As regards Penton's book, you'll have to ask him. Would you like to? I can put you in touch if you would.
As for your ramblings about why documentation on the NWT translators ought to exist and why Ray Franz didn't have access to it, you'll have to ask the Society. They're the ones who are keeping it locked up. If it were up to me, the entire archives would be open to the world.
You seem to wonder darkly why more people who left Bethel have not come forward to 'blow the whistle, so to speak'. I'm not sure just what you're implying ought to be done, but as I said, several people who had information have certainly published the names of those they knew were on the translation committee. It does not follow that they knew all of the translators. However, my private sources tell me that the list I posted is complete. If you have information that indicates that the list is wrong, or incomplete, then let's hear it. Otherwise, you don't really have much you say besides your dark, baseless implications.
As for your claim that the NWT is the greatest translation ever devised, don't try to insult peoples' intelligence. As I mentioned in that other thread, I think it's great as a literal translation most of the time. But stylistically it's terrible. And of course it contains a number of deliberate misrepresentations that are there to support pre-existing JW doctrine or practice, such as substituting "take in knowledge of" for "come to know" in John 17:3, the mistranslation of "parousia" as "presence", etc. I have to wonder why you failed to comment on those things in that other thread.
AlanF
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julien
I particularly like the one:
'the peace of God that excels all thought will guard your heart and your mental powers'
from Philippians 4:6, 7
NIV:the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds
NASB:the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds
WTF is "excels all thought"???
by the way check out this page, it's pretty nice:
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Zero
Opinion:
The NWT actually loses some of its punch where it tries to be overly literal. The old KJV is matchless in the way it conveys its message concisely and poetically. Compare a couple of proverbs:Prov.26:5
KJV - "Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he become wise in his own conceit."NWT - "Answer someone stupid according to his foolishness, that he may not become someone wise in his own eyes."
Prov.26:16
KJV - "The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason."NWT - "The lazy one is wiser in his own eyes than seven giving a sensible reply."
The NWT's dryness forfeits some of gist that comes with good rhetoric in the psalms and proverbs, to my thinking. Not that I am a great fan of the Authorized Version, I just like the old English for a few things. On the other hand, the literalness of the NWT is much better for rendering something like "hell".
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ozziepost
G'day julien,
There are many examples of clumsy expressions in the NWT but I do like your one
that excels all thought
I read that many times while giving talks but it's only recently that I'm actually thinking about the words! I wonder what was in the translators' minds when they settled on this expression? Did any of them ever use it in their own speech?Cheers,
Ozzie"You can know the law by heart, without knowing the heart of it"
Philip Yancey, What's So Amazing About Grace?