valis, re: your response in the apostate question thread..

by candidlynuts 5 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • candidlynuts
    candidlynuts

    you replied with these examples:

    Selected verses from the New World Translation

    Job

    Verse NWT KJV
    13:16For before him no apostate will come in. For an hypocrite shall not come before him.
    27:8-9For what is the hope of an apostate in case he cuts [him] off, In case God carries off his soul from him? Will God hear an outcry of his in case distress comes upon him? For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul? Will God hear his cry when trouble cometh upon him?
    36:13-14And those apostate in heart will themselves lay up anger. They should not cry for help because he has bound them. Their soul will die in youth itself, And their life among male temple prostitutes. But the hypocrites in heart heap up wrath: they cry not when he bindeth them. They die in youth, and their life is among the unclean.

    Psalms
    Verse NWT KJV
    35:16Among the apostate mockers for a cake there was a grinding of their teeth even against me. With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.

    Proverbs
    Verse NWT KJV
    11:9By [his] mouth the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin, but by knowledge are the righteous rescued. An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.

    Isaiah
    Verse NWT KJV
    9:17That is why Jehovah will not rejoice even over their young men, and upon their fatherless boys and upon their widows he will have no mercy; because all of them are apostates and evildoers and every moth is speaking senselessness. Therefore the LORD shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for
    every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly.
    32:6Because the senseless one himself will speak mere senselessness, and his very heart will work at what is hurtful, to work at apostasy and to speak against Jehovah.... For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD....
    33:14In Zion the sinners have come to be in dread; shivering has grabbed hold of the apostates. The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites.
    62:2And the nations will certainly see your righteousness, [O woman] and all kings your glory. And you will actually be called by a new name, which the very mouth of Jehovah will designate. And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all the kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

    Jeremiah
    Verse NWT KJV
    17:13O Jehovah, the hope of Israel, all those who are leaving you will be put to shame. Those apostatizing from me will be written down even in the earth, because they have left the source of living water, Jehovah. O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

    do you know.. or does anyone else know... what hebrew word that is translated from? and in the greek scriptures is the word "hypocrit" replaced with apostate as well?

    the way the NWT takes out "grace" and replaces it with " undeserved kindness" has always irked me.. now this is irksome as well!

    (of course..i'm easily irked)

  • dh
    dh

    Yeah, this is certainly interesting to me, since my JW dad recently admitted he was a hypocrite, and said that everyone was a hypocrite. It would be interesting to prove that in the Bible as JW's see it, the word he admits to being is in fact the same word JW's say is 'apostate'... I am going to cross reference that with other Bible translations and see if the NWT is the only one using 'apostate.

    Edited: Just had a quick blast over Bible.com and WT.org & a dictionary.

    Oxford Dictionary:

    Hypocrisy: Simulation of virtue or goodness, insincerity.
    Hypocrite: Person guilty of hypocrisy.

    Godless: Not believing in God or a god; impious, wicked.

    Profane: 1. Not sacred, secular. 2. Irreverent, blasphemous. ? v.t. to treat (a scared thing) with irreverence or disregard; to violate or pollute (what is entitled to respect)

    Apostate: One who renounces his former belief principles, or party, etc.

    Job 13:16

    KJV: 16 He also shall be my salvation: for an hypocrite shall not come before him.

    RSV: 16 This will be my salvation, that a godless man shall not come before him.

    Darby: 16 This also shall be my salvation, that a profane man shall not come before his face

    NWT: 16 He would also be my salvation, For before him no apostate will come in.

    Job: 27: 8-9

    KJV: 8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul? 9 Will God hear his cry when trouble cometh upon him?

    RSV: 8 For what is the hope of the godless when God cuts him off, when God takes away his life? 9 Will God hear his cry, when trouble comes upon him?

    Darby: 8 For what is the hope of the ungodly, when [God] cutteth him off, when +God taketh away his soul? 9 Will ùGod hear his cry when distress cometh upon him?

    NWT: 8 For what is the hope of an apostate in case he cuts [him] off, In case God carries off his soul from him? 9 Will God hear an outcry of his In case distress comes upon him?

    Job 36: 13-14

    KJV: 13 But the hypocrites in heart heap up wrath: they cry not when he bindeth them. 14 They die in youth, and their life is among the unclean.

    RSV: 13 "The godless in heart cherish anger; they do not cry for help when he binds them. 14 They die in youth, and their life ends in shame.

    Darby: 13 But the godless in heart heap up anger; they cry not when he bindeth them: 14 Their soul dieth in youth, and their life is among the unclean.

    NWT: 13 And those apostate in heart will themselves lay up anger. They should not cry for help because he has bound them. 14 Their soul will die in youth itself, And their life among male temple prostitutes.

    Psalms 35:15-17

    KJV: 15 But in mine adversity they rejoiced, and gathered themselves together: yea, the abjects gathered themselves together against me, and I knew it not; they did tear me, and ceased not: 16 With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth. 17 Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the lions.

    RSV: 15 But at my stumbling they gathered in glee, they gathered together against me; cripples whom I knew not slandered me without ceasing; 16 they impiously mocked more and more, gnashing at me with their teeth. 17 How long, O LORD, wilt thou look on? Rescue me from their ravages, my life from the lions!

    Darby: 15 But at my halting they rejoiced, and gathered together: the slanderers gathered themselves together against me, and I knew [it] not; they did tear [me], and ceased not: 16 With profane jesters for bread, they have gnashed their teeth against me. 17 Lord, how long wilt thou look on? Rescue my soul from their destructions, my only one from the young lions.

    NWT: 15 But at my limping they rejoiced and gathered together; They gathered together against me, Striking [me] down when I did not know it; They ripped [me] to pieces and did not keep silent. 16 Among the apostate mockers for a cake There was a grinding of their teeth even against me. 17 O Jehovah, how long will you keep seeing [it]? Do bring back my soul from their ravages,Even my only one from the maned young lions.

    Proverbs 11:9

    KJV: 9 An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.

    RSV: 9 With his mouth the godless man would destroy his neighbor, but by knowledge the righteous are delivered.

    Darby: 9 With his mouth a hypocrite destroyeth his neighbour; but through knowledge are the righteous delivered.

    NWT: 9 By [his] mouth the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin, but by knowledge are the righteous rescued.

    Isaiah 9:17

    KJV: 17 Therefore the LORD shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

    RSV: 17 Therefore the Lord does not rejoice over their young men, and has no compassion on their fatherless and widows; for every one is godless and an evildoer, and every mouth speaks folly. For all this his anger is not turned away and his hand is stretched out still.

    Darby: 17 Therefore the Lord will not rejoice in their young men, neither will he have mercy on their fatherless and on their widows; for every one is a hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, and his hand is stretched out still.

    NWT: 17 That is why Jehovah will not rejoice even over their young men, and upon their fatherless boys and upon their widows he will have no mercy; because all of them are apostates and evildoers and every mouth is speaking senselessness. In view of all this his anger has not turned back, but his hand is stretched out still.

    Isaiah 32:6

    KJV: 6 For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.

    RSV: 6 For the fool speaks folly, and his mind plots iniquity: to practice ungodliness, to utter error concerning the LORD, to leave the craving of the hungry unsatisfied, and to deprive the thirsty of drink.

    Darby: 6 for the vile man will speak villainy, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against Jehovah, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and to cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.

    NWT: 6 because the senseless one himself will speak mere senselessness, and his very heart will work at what is hurtful, to work at apostasy and to speak against Jehovah what is wayward, to cause the soul of the hungry one to go empty, and he causes even the thirsty one to go without drink itself.

    Isaiah 33:14

    KJV: 14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

    Revised Standard Version: 14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless: "Who among us can dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?"

    Darby: 14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling hath surprised the hypocrites: Who among us shall dwell with the consuming fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting flames?

    NWT: 14 In Zion the sinners have come to be in dread; shivering has grabbed hold of the apostates: ?Who of us can reside for any time with a devouring fire? Who of us can reside for any time with long-lasting conflagrations??

    Isaiah 62:2

    KJV: 2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

    Darby: 2 And the nations shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory; and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of Jehovah will name.

    RSV: 2 The nations shall see your vindication, and all the kings your glory; and you shall be called by a new name which the mouth of the LORD will give.

    NWT: 2 ?And the nations will certainly see your righteousness, [O woman,] and all kings your glory. And you will actually be called by a new name, which the very mouth of Jehovah will designate.

    Jeremiah 17:13

    KJV: 13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

    RSV: 13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all who forsake thee shall be put to shame; those who turn away from thee shall be written in the earth, for they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living water.

    Darby: 13 Thou hope of Israel, Jehovah! all that forsake thee shall be ashamed. They that depart from me shall be written in the earth; because they have forsaken Jehovah, the fountain of living waters.

    NWT: 13 O Jehovah, the hope of Israel, all those who are leaving you will be put to shame. Those apostatizing from me will be written down even in the earth, because they have left the source of living water, Jehovah.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    The Hebrew word is chaneph (hnp) -- Job 8:13; 13:16; 15:34; 17:8; 20:5; 27:8; 34:30; 36:13; Psalm 35:16; Proverbs 11:9; Isaiah 9:16; 10:6; 33:14. (Related words in Isaiah 32:6; Jeremiah 23:15.)

    The most recent lexicography understands it as "profane" --> godless, impious, blasphemous, sacrilege etc.

    The KJV (based on the Greek LXX exceptional rendering in Job 34:30; 36:16) is clearly off the trail and the NWT is tendentious.

  • MAHABA
    MAHABA

    The word translated by "apostate" in the NWT is the hebrew word Pnx , chaneph {khaw-nafe'}, and here are some occurrences of the word in the OT

    @nEx' adj. profane, irreligious -- profane , godless: of persons; as subst. godless man;

    dbat Pnx twqtw la yxks-lk twxra Nk Job 8:13

    awby Pnx wynpl al-yk hewsyl yl-awh-Mg Job 13:16

    dxs-ylha hlka saw dwmlg Pnx tde-yk Job 15:34

    rrety Pnx -le yqnw taz-le Myrsy wmsy Job 17:8

    egr-yde Pnx txmvw bwrqm Myesr tnnr yk Job 20:5

    wspn hwla lsy yk euby yk Pnx twqt-hm yk Job 27:8

    Me ysqmm Pnx Mda Klmm Job 34:30

    wulxy Myqydu tedbw wher txsy Pnx hpb Proverbs 11:9

    hywjn wdy dwew wpa bs-al taz-lkb hlbn rbd hp-lkw ermw Pnx wlk yk Mxry al wytnmla-taw wymty-taw ynda xmvy-al wyrwxb-le Nk-le <

    Jo b So are the paths of all that forget God; and the hope of the godless man shall perish;

    Job This also shall be my salvation, that a hypocrite cannot come before

    Him.

    Job For the company of the godless shall be desolate, and fire shall consume the tents of bribery.

    Job 17:8 Upright men are astonished at this, and the innocent stirreth up himself against the godless.

    Job 20:5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the godless but for a moment?

    Job 27:8 For what is the hope of the godless , though he get him gain, when God taketh away his soul?

    Job 34:30 That the godless man reign not, that there be none to ensnare the people.

    Proverbs 11:9 ¶ With his mouth the impious man destroyeth his neighbour; but through knowledge shall the righteous be delivered.

    Isaiah (9-16) Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall He have compassion on their fatherless and widows; for every one is ungodly and an evil-doer, and every mouth speaketh wantonness. For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

    Isaiah 10:6 I do send him against an ungodly nation, and against the people of My wrath do I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

    Isaiah 32:6 For the vile person will speak villainy, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise ungodliness , and to utter wickedness against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and to cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.

    ESV Job This will be my salvation, that the godless shall not come before him.

    @nEx' chaneph {khaw-nafe'}

    Meaning: @nEx' adjective masculine singular absolute

    B3291

    Job 27:8-9: Chaneph

    Job 36:13-14 : Chaneph

    ESV Psalm 35:16 like profane mockers at a feast, 1 they gnash at me with their teeth.

    Chaneph

    LXE Proverbs 11:9 In the mouth of ungodly men is a snare to citizens: but the understanding of righteous men is prosperous.

    Chaneph

    ESV Isaiah 9:17 Therefore the Lord does not rejoice over their young men, and has no compassion on their fatherless and widows; for everyone is godless and an evildoer, and every mouth speaks folly. 1 For all this his anger has not turned away, and his hand is stretched out still.

    Chaneph

    Gill commentary:for everyone is a hypocrite and an evildoer ; a hypocrite, as Aben Ezra on the place observes, is one that is outwardly good, and inwardly wicked; which was the general character of the people of in Isaiah's time, as it was of the Jews in the times of Christ, see

    Es 32:6

    כי נבל נבלה ידבר ולבו יעשׂה־און לעשׂות חנף

    Chaneph

    K&D commentary:In Isa_32:6, commencing with ki (for), the fact that the nâbhâl (fool) and kīlai (crafty man) will lose their titles of honour, is explained on the simple ground that such men are utterly unworthy of them. Nâbhâl is a scoffer at religion, who thinks himself an enlightened man, and yet at the same time has the basest heart, and is a worthless egotist. The infinitives with Lamed show in what the immorality ( 'âven ) consists, with which his heart is so actively employed. In Isa_32:6, ūbh e dabbēr (?and if he speak?) is equivalent to, ?even in the event of a needy man saying what is right and well founded:? Vâv = et in the sense of etiam ((cf., 2Sa_1:23; Psa_31:12; Hos_8:6; Ecc_5:6); according to Knobel, it is equivalent to et quidem, as in Ecc_8:2; Amo_3:11; Amo_4:10; whereas Ewald regards it as Vav conj. (§283, d), ?and by going to law with the needy,? but את־אביון would be the construction in this case

    Isa 33:14 The sinners in are afraid; trembling seizes the ungodly: "Who among us can dwell with a consuming fire? Who among us can dwell with ever-burning flames?"

    LXT Isaiah 33:14 avpe,sthsan oi` evn Siwn a;nomoi lh,myetai tro,moj tou.j avsebei/j ( sebei/j adjective normal accusative masculine plural no degree[UBS] avsebh,j , e,j godless, impious)

    ( ti,j avnaggelei/ u`mi/n o[ti pu/r kai,etai ti,j avnaggelei/ u`mi/n to.n to,pon to.n aivw,nion

    Chaneph

    BHT Isaiah 62:2 würä´û( and they see ) gôyìm( nations ) cidqëk ( righteousness of you )wükol( and all o f )müläkîm( kings ) Kübôdëk (glory of you )wüqöºrä´( and he calls ) läk(to you) ?ëm Hädä?(name new) ´á?er( which ) Pî( mouth of ) yhwh(´ädönäy) yiqqóbe º nnû ( he shall specify him )

    Isa 62:1-3 -

    K&D:Nearly all the more recent commentators regard the prophet himself as speaking here. Having given himself up to praying to Jehovah and preaching to the people, he will not rest or hold his peace till the salvation, which has begun to be realized, has been brought fully out to the light of day. It is, however, really Jehovah who commences thus: ?For 's sake I shall not be silent, and for 's sake I shall not rest, till her righteousness breaks forth like morning brightness, and her salvation like a blazing torch. And nations will see they righteousness, and all kings thy glory; and men will call thee by a new name, which the mouth of Jehovah will determine. And thou wilt be an adorning coronet in the hand of Jehovah, and a royal diadem in the lap of thy God.? It is evident that Jehovah is the speaker here, both from Isa_62:6 and also from the expression used; for châshâh is the word commonly employed in such utterances of Jehovah concerning Himself, to denote His leaving things in their existing state without interposing (Isa_65:6; Isa_57:11; Isa_64:11). Moreover, the arguments which may be adduced to prove that the author of chapters 40-66 is not the speaker in Isa_61:1-11, also prove that it is not he who is continuing to speak of himself in Isa_62:1-12 Jehovah, having now begun to speak and move on behalf of Zion, will ?for Zion's sake,? i.e., just because it is Zion, His own church, neither be silent nor give Himself rest, till He has gloriously executed His work of grace. is now in the shade, but the time will come when her righteousness will go forth as nōgah , the light which bursts through the night (Isa_60:19; Isa_59:9; here the morning sunlight, Pro_4:18; compare shachar , the morning red, Isa_58:8); or till her salvation is like a torch which blazes. יבער belongs to כלפּיד ( mercha ) in the form of an attributive clause = בּער , although it might also be assumed that יבער stands by attraction for תבער (cf., Isa_2:11; Ewald, §317, c). The verb בּער , which is generally applied to wrath (e.g., Isa_30:27), is here used in connection with salvation, which has wrath towards the enemies of Zion as its obverse side: Zion's tsedeq (righteousness) shall become like the morning sunlight, before which even the last twilight has vanished; and Zion's y e shū‛âh is like a nightly torch, which sets fire to its own material, and everything that comes near it. The force of the conjunction עד (until) does not extend beyond Isa_62:1. From Isa_62:2 onwards, the condition of things in the object indicated by עד is more fully described. The eyes of the nations will be directed to the righteousness of , the impress of which is now their common property; the eyes of all kings to her glory, with which the glory of none of them, nor even of all together, can possibly compare. And because this state of is a new one, which has never existed before, her old name is not sufficient to indicate her nature. She is called by a new name; and who could determine this new name? He who makes the church righteous and glorious, He, and He alone, is able to utter a name answering to her new nature, just as it was He who called Abram Abraham, and Jacob Israel. The mouth of Jehovah will determine it ( נקב , to pierce, to mark, to designate in a signal and distinguishing manner, nuncupare; cf., Amo_6:1; Num_1:17). It is only in imagery that prophecy here sees what Zion will be in the future: she will be ?a crown of glory,? ?a diadem,? or rather a tiara ( ts e nīph ; Chethib ts e nūph = mitsnepheth , the head-dress of the high priest, Exo_28:4; Zec_3:5; and that of the king, Eze_21:31) ?of regal dignity,? in the hand of her God (for want of a synonym of ?hand,? we have adopted the rendering ?in the lap? the second time that it occurs). Meier renders יהוה בּיד ( בּכף ) Jovae sub praesidio, as though it did not form part of the figure. But it is a main feature in the figure, that Jehovah holds the crown in His hand. is not the ancient crown which the Eternal wears upon His head, but the crown wrought out in time, which He holds in His hand, because He is seen in by all creation. The whole history of salvation is the history of the taking of the kingdom, and the perfecting of the kingdom by Jehovah; in other words, the history of the working out of this crown.

    Ylt-Jer The hope of is Jehovah, All forsaking Thee are ashamed, And `My apostates' in the earth are written , For they have forsaken Jehovah, A fountain of living waters.

    XT Jeremiah u`pomonh. Israhl ku,rie pa,ntej oi` katalipo,ntej se kataiscunqh,twsan avfesthko,tej evpi. th/j gh/j grafh,twsan o[ti evgkate,lipon phgh.n zwh/j to.n ku,rion

    Jer 17:13 Oh Jehová, esperanza de Israel! todos los que te dejan, serán avergonzados; y los que de mí se apartan,

    BHT Jeremiah 17:13 miqwË( expectation of ) yiSrä´ël (Israël) yhwh(´ädönäy) Kol( all of )-`özbʺkä( ones forsaking you ) yëböº?û( they shall be ashamed ) (yìsôray)( and one withdrawing from me ) [wüsûray] Bä´äºrec( in earth ) yiKKätëºbû( they shall be written ) Kî ( that )`äzbû( they forsake ) müqôr ( foutain of )ma|yim( waters )-Hayyîm( living one ) ´et-yhwh(´ädönäy) s

    3249 rwoy yacuwr yaw-soor?

    from 05493 ; TWOT-1480; adj

    AV-depart 1; 1

    1 ) those departing, revolting

    Amitiés

    Ivan

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    The unique noun yswr in MT Jeremiah 17:13 is most probably an alteration of the very common verb swr, "to turn away" (e.g., in a theological sense, Deuteronomy 11:16; Jeremiah 5:23; 17:5), and as such a far better candidate (than the root hnp) for the meaning "apostatise" (cf. LXX Jeremiah 17:5,13 aphistèmi, which is cognate to apostasia and apostatès).

  • gumby
    gumby

    I wonder if they had used a word that does not relate to ex-dubs...( such as apostate) if it would have bothered anyone?

    Gumby

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit