Religious frustration...? Or just plain Murder...?

by Rabbit 15 Replies latest social current

  • Rabbit
    Rabbit

    The following story sent chills down my spine. People do go 'crazy' in all kinds of stressful situations, they go into a homocidal 'mode' for who knows what reasons. It's just when it happens in a church...a place that is supposed to be there for the "peace and happiness" of the members...? What could drive someone to kill those very people ?

    The church below has several 'markers' of another "end of days" religion (guess who ) whose very high control beliefs and doctrines actually increase the stress on folks, instead of truly bringing peace. IMO, of course...

    I have underlined points below that stood out to me.

    From "The New York Times."

    March 14, 2005
    After Shootings in Wisconsin, a Community Asks 'Why?'
    By JODI WILGOREN

    ROOKFIELD, Wis., March 13 - Two weeks ago, Terry Ratzmann stalked out of a meeting of his church, upset about something in the sermon. On Saturday, he stormed in late to the weekly service at the Sheraton hotel here and without a word began spraying the congregation with bullets.

    The authorities remain unsure whether Mr. Ratzmann's rampage, which killed seven members of the Living Church of God, including the pastor, and ended in suicide, was a result of religious frustration. Church members said he had been suffering from depression and had just lost his job.

    What they do know is that Mr. Ratzmann, 44, a computer programmer with a fondness for gardening who had no criminal record, ignored pleas from a friend to stop, instead popping a second magazine into his 9-millimeter handgun and firing 22 bullets in a minute or less.

    "Nobody has told us anything from prior actions or prior contacts where they would have anticipated anything like this happening," Capt. Phil Horter of the Brookfield Police Department said at a news conference in this Milwaukee suburb on Sunday morning. "At this point we're unable to determine if he had specific targets or if he just shot at random. At this time, we have no clear motive."

    The day after the worst mass killings in this state since 1914, when the chef at Taliesin, Frank Lloyd Wright's estate in Spring Green, killed seven people, the police were combing through encrypted files on three computers taken from the home where Mr. Ratzmann lived with his mother and sister. No suicide note was found. At the same time, neighbors were trying to reconcile the quiet man who brought them tomatoes and zucchini with the carnage wrought at the hotel. And church members here and across the country searched for meaning in the killings.

    "Sometimes he was up and sometimes he was down," Kathleen Wollin, 66, a church member who was present Saturday, said of Mr. Ratzmann. "When he was down, you couldn't talk to him." Several weeks ago, Ms. Wollin recalled, Mr. Ratzmann showed her pictures of a recent trip to Australia, "and he was fine." But, she added, "people tell me he wasn't talking lately."

    Sunday evening, two dozen people said the Lord's Prayer and held candles in the frigid night air in a vigil outside the Sheraton.

    The Living Church of God was founded in the mid-1990's by Roderick C. Meredith after he was kicked out of one of the many groups that splintered from the Worldwide Church of God upon the death of its leader, Herbert W. Armstrong. It claims 7,000 members in 288 congregations. Many of them, like the one here, meet in hotels or other public spaces with itinerant pastors.

    The Living Church holds that people from Northwest Europe are descendants of the Bible's 10 lost tribes of Israel, "possessors of the birthright promises and accompanying blessings" of Abraham's descendants, according to a statement of beliefs from its Web site. It observes the Sabbath on Saturday and counsels members to remain apart from the secular world by not participating in juries, politics or the military.

    The church's view of history, which asserts that humankind is moving inexorably toward the "end times," when the world will go through a series of cataclysms before the second coming of Christ, is not uncommon among evangelicals. While most evangelicals eschew specific predictions about "end times," however, Dr. Meredith preached in a recent sermon broadcast internationally that the apocalypse was close, warning members to pay off credit-card debt and hoard savings in preparation for the United States' coming financial collapse.

    Sherry Koonce, 47, said her brother, Glenn Diekmeier, a deacon in the church, was at the podium on Saturday warming people up for the pastor's sermon when Mr. Ratzmann burst through the back door.

    "He did not see the gun, he didn't see that he had a gun, he heard the shot," Ms. Koonce said of her brother. "When he heard the shooting stop, he got up and he saw what happened. He saw my dad and he went over by him. He looked and he wasn't moving. The paramedic checked and there was not a pulse."

    In addition to Ms. Koonce's father, Harold Diekmeier, 74, of Delafield, Wis., who had been a member of the church and its progenitors since 1972, the dead included the pastor, Randy L. Gregory, 51, and his 16-year-old son, James, of Gurnee, Ill.; Gloria Critari, 55, and Richard W. Reeves, 58, both of Cudahy, Wis.; Gerald A. Miller, 44, of Erin, Wis.; and Bart Oliver, 15, of Waukesha.

    The pastor's wife, Marjean, 52, was injured, along with three others: Angel M. Varichak, 19; Matthew P. Kaulbach, 21; and a 10-year-old girl named Lindsay whose last name was not released.

    At the Sheraton on Sunday afternoon, two of Bart Oliver's friends laid a white cardboard sign saying he would be missed, along with a poem, on a shrine that included eight wooden crosses, two dozen bouquets, stuffed animals and pictures.

    "Do not stand at my grave and cry," read the poem, by Mary Frye, which the teenagers pulled off the Internet. "I am not there. I did not die."

    Mr. Gregory, a former engineer at I.B.M., became a paid minister in the church about five years ago, and moved from Texas to Gurnee so he could minister to congregations in both Chicago and Milwaukee. Neighbors said they could set their clocks by Mr. Gregory's daily 2 p.m. stroll around their subdivision. They said the family was gone most of the weekend conducting church services in multiple locations.

    "The church was everything" to the family, said a neighbor, Toni D'Amore. "Their social activities were pretty much with the church."

    The police said there were 50 to 60 people in the hotel conference room for Saturday's service, which started at 12:30 p.m. rather than at the usual 10 a.m. because it was to be followed by a potluck dinner and a talent show. When Mr. Ratzmann began shooting from the back of the room, Captain Horter said, church members "took what action they thought to be necessary, safeguarding themselves, safeguarding family members, safeguarding others."

    Ms. Wollin said she was seated in the front and "heard pop-pop."

    "I turned around, I saw Terry shooting, I hit the ground," she said.

    The first 911 calls from church members' cellphones came in at 12:51 p.m., and officers arrived on the scene three minutes later. Mr. Ratzmann, the police said, was against the wall at the back of the room, dead of a gunshot to the head.

    In searching Mr. Ratzmann's home, about two miles away in New Berlin, the police found 9-millimeter bullets that, with the 22 shots fired and those remaining in the handgun, added up to the 50 that come in a box. They also recovered a .22-caliber rifle and the computers, but nothing to explain the massacre. They are trying to construct a timeline of Mr. Ratzmann's activities in the 24 hours before the killings.

    No one answered the door on Sunday at the Ratzmanns' wood-frame house, where someone had left a bouquet of flowers and two teddy bears. A woman who picked up the telephone there said only, "At this time the family really has nothing to say."

    Neighbors said Mr. Ratzmann was a computer programmer and had lately been out of work. A spokeswoman for Adecco, a human resources firm, said Mr. Ratzmann was an employee of the firm and had recently been on assignment for GE Healthcare, which released a statement saying the company was cooperating with investigators and offering prayers to the victims' families.

    Shane Colwell, who lives across the alley, said he and Mr. Ratzmann traded tools as they both built garages. He said Mr. Ratzmann caught rabbits in "humane traps" and drove them 20 miles away rather than shooting them, and he wore a tie, jacket and dress pants for services every Saturday.

    Mr. Colwell said he last spoke to Mr. Ratzmann two days before the shooting, while shoveling snow. Mr. Ratzmann was getting seedlings ready for planting, Mr. Colwell said, and was planning a camping trip out West for the summer.

    "I didn't know things were this bad; had I known, I would have tried to talk to him," he said.

    Kenneth Stump, 83, a retired warehouse worker who lived next door, said Mr. Ratzmann took him acid-free tomatoes "because he knew I couldn't eat stuff with acid." Mr. Stump said Mr. Ratzmann picked up his lawn clippings to fertilize his garden and would help Mr. Stump move firewood from the garage.

    On Saturday, Mr. Stump said he saw Mr. Ratzmann leaving for the Sheraton. He waved, and Mr. Ratzmann waved back.

    Reporting for this article was contributed by David Bernstein from Gurnee, Ill., Daniel I. Dorfman from Wisconsin, Neela Banerjee from Washington and Laurie Goodstein from New York.

    Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

    I wonder if "Herbert W. Armstrong's" & splinter groups have any "Ex" discussion boards where X-members can vent and spew about their feelings ?

    Stress, mental illness or religious frustration ? Or some combination ?

    rabbit

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    A lot of churches make people feel like crud. They constantly tell you that you are not good enough and try to make you worry and fear for your eternal safety. Pretty stupid thing to do, especially to people who are down and suffering.

  • Rabbit
    Rabbit

    Yep, Flyin', that's sorta what I was thinking. "Religion" can be a force for good and is, but, the overall general damage is shocking when you look at history.

    "Mind Games"...I hate 'em.

    rabbit

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow
    "Mind Games"...I hate 'em.

    I do, too. And I always say, I'd rather spend eternity with a bunch of happy fornicators than one hour with a judgmental, busy body christian. To me, they cause much harm and unhappiness.

    I am not speaking of sincere and nice people. Andy's parents are some of the kindest, non judgmental christians you will meet. They don't gossip either. They are gently practicing, very sincere catholics.

  • blondie
    blondie

    I have to admit that I read "Tomorrow's World" published by LCOG. It is amazing what is similar to the WTS but then large parts are very different. I think the shooter had been a man struggling all his life. He joined this group about 5 years ago; he might have been looking for an answer and didn't find it. .

    Nation

    this print this
    Posted on Mon, Mar. 14, 2005

    Gunman who killed 7 at church service targeted people, police say


    BY JOHN DIEDRICH

    Milwaukee Journal Sentinel

    MILWAUKEE - (KRT) - Terry W. Ratzmann arrived at a Brookfield, Wis., hotel prior to his church's service Saturday, carrying a Bible in a briefcase and speaking to fellow parishioners, police revealed Monday.

    But then Ratzmann left for home where he apparently exchanged his Bible for his Beretta 9 mm handgun and plenty of ammunition. He returned to the hotel and, wearing dark sunglasses, silently entered the church service and opened fire, and at one point looked a 12-year-old boy in the eye before firing at him, the boy's father said.

    Ratzmann apparently targeted certain people including the church's pastor, Randy Gregory, his wife and 16-year-old son, authorities said. Others were hit because they sat near the pastor.

    Firing 22 shots in a minute, the 44-year-old engineer shot 11 people, killing seven before turning the gun on himself.

    On Monday, authorities discounted Ratzmann's current job status as a motive, saying his job as a contractor for GE Healthcare in Waukesha was due to end March 25 but he wasn't being fired (what???) and co-workers and bosses didn't indicate he had problems.

    Officials, instead, focused their search for a motive on Ratzmann's relationship with the Living Church of God, a small congregation he joined four or five years ago and whose services he regularly attended at the Sheraton Milwaukee Brookfield Hotel.

    They are studying the church membership, its leadership and a sermon given in a service at the same hotel Feb. 26, which Ratzmann left early without giving the closing prayer, as he was scheduled to do.

    "We believe that the motive has something to do with the church and the church services, more so than any other possible motive," said Brookfield police Capt. Phil Horter. "We are looking at the church totality."

    In that Feb. 26 service, a taped sermon focused on how bad fortune befalls those who make ungodly choices, according to a parishioner, who was there and had known Ratzmann for years. That woman said Ratzmann had struggled with unemployment in recent years. Others who knew Ratzmann said he had lost a job he loved three years ago.

    A Living Church of God official Monday said the church is investigating the Feb. 26 sermon but "it had nothing to do with prophecy or any kind of sensational topic," said Charles Bryce, the church's national director of administration. "It was just about basic Christian living." (like he could be objective)

    Speaking at Froedtert Lutheran Memorial Hospital where three church members are recovering from gunshot wounds, Bryce said, "There are some people who are saying that perhaps he was called upon to give the closing prayer and just got kind of nervous at the end, and that's why he walked out."

    Horter said Ratzmann had given the closing prayer before and had left a service early, but witnesses said he had never walked out on his obligation to give the prayer.

    Ratzmann did not come to the March 5 service, parishioners said. He came early on Saturday, but then left and police aren't sure why, Horter said. (no one cared enough to call him??)

    Also Monday, police released tapes of 911 calls placed from inside the meeting room where the shooting occurred. They paint a terrifying picture of the rampage.

    "Oh my, one of my friends is laying on the floor. I think she's dead. Oh this is awful. This is a massacre," one caller said.

    Another said, "We thought it was just a balloon going off. And someone said, `This is real. This is real.'"

    Police continue to interview the nearly 60 people who were at the church service. Detectives also are examining four computers - three from Ratzmann's home and one from his work place that hold thousands of files including dozens that are encrypted, Horter said. Detectives and an FBI agent are doing that analysis.

    Ratzmann, who reloaded during the shooting, apparently deliberately shot at Pastor Randy Gregory, his wife and his 16-year-old son. The pastor and his son, James, both of Gurnee, Ill., were killed. His wife, Marjean, remained in critical condition at Froedtert.

    "Part of that comes from the fact that three members of the pastor's family were victims. That would lead anyone to conclude or speculate those people were possibly targeted," Horter said. Police think others were hit because they were close to the pastor's family.

    At one point, David Mohr - who had known Ratzmann for years - confronted him by name and said, "Stop, stop. Why?" said one church member, Ella Frazier. Ratzmann then fired a few more times before killing himself, police said.

    The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms said Ratzmann bought the Beretta used in the shooting at Fletcher Arms in Waukesha on June 8, and a .22-caliber rifle, which was not used in the shooting, at a rural Wisconsin gun shop in 1982. The rifle, along with a box of 9 mm ammunition was found at his New Berlin home he shared with his mother and sister, police said. The box was missing roughly the number of rounds fired at the hotel, police said.

    Ratzmann previously had used the Beretta with someone from the church, but officials didn't say when or where that occurred.

    Authorities said they were entering a new phase of the investigation Monday, examining evidence and continuing interviews, hoping to get answers for the victims' families and the public. However, they cautioned they may never know what snapped in Ratzmann's mind.

    "You are looking for logic in an illogical act and we may not be able to provide that," said Waukesha District Attorney Paul Bucher.

    ---

    (Milwaukee Journal Sentinel correspondents Dave Umhoefer and Jacqueline Seibel contributed to this report.)

    ---

    © 2005, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

    Visit JSOnline, the Journal Sentinel's World Wide Web site, at http://www.jsonline.com

  • cypher50
    cypher50
    saying his job as a contractor for GE Healthcare in Waukesha was due to end March 25 but he wasn't being fired (what???)

    He is a contractor, Blondie, and thusly he had a set time period for the job that he was doing. For instance, there are many computer programmers who do contract work for a year with a company and then do another contract with someone else...basically, his contract was expiring 3/25 so he wouldn't have any more work with the current company he was at.

  • Country Girl
    Country Girl

    Rabbit:

    While I admire yer style.. <wink wink>.. it's just another example of a person that is a control freak and everything gets OUT of control. Not less than a week ago, a guy in Fulton County, Georgia killed a Judge, some other people, and a federal agent; not less then a month ago a man wo was ordered to pay child support, killed his ex wife and shot his own son.. and some extra people at the courthouse in Tyler, Texas. It's not really surprising. I just am hesitant to put it down to "end times" religions.. because all those other people did the same thing and they wenren't religious. It's just the stressful times we are living in, that is all. Sure, that could ADD to the stress, but I don't think that was it.

    Why do some people kill all at one time? Normal, every day, religious law abiding citizens, and why do others <BTK Killer> kill over time? Is it the same thing, but only played out more slowly? I don't know... and neither does the FBI. I would bet that out of all their stupid profiles, only 1 in 24 is right. Who knows who is going to explode next? Some people just reach their breaking point.. and they don't care. I guess if you are gonna go out... and you are mad at a few people.. you may as well take em with you.

    I have been reading about the life of Carl Panzram. He was a serial rapist/killer from the 1920's. He was hung eventually for is crimes. He took pride in the fact that he raped young boys, set fire to a bunch of buildings, fought, killed, raised mayhem. Despite being the most despicable person alive, he was the MOST HONEST person that I ever read about. He was not ashamed of his crimes, be was quite honest about them. He said he set out at the age of 14, after he had been raped and tortured in juvenile facilities, to give to the public what was given to him. He said that he could have been saved by just a little bit of kindness at that point, but by 28, he was a hardcore criminal, bent on one mission: PUTTING PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR MISERY. And he did it, whenever he could. Although he didn't finish high school, he was very intelligent.

    He said that we make our own criminals. He talks about how a boy becomes a criminal.. and how he becomes a killer after he's been in prison. It's amazing..

    It's scary to me because I had a dream one night.. that my son will kill me. That's harsh to say.. but I am not the only one that thinks that. My own husband says that he has dreams that we'll wake up and be showered with bullets.

    I hope not..

    Rabbit.... the wreckless chaos of the world makes people nuts.

    Hugs

    CG

  • blondie
    blondie
    saying his job as a contractor for GE Healthcare in Waukesha was due to end March 25 but he wasn't being fired (what???)
    He is a contractor, Blondie, and thusly he had a set time period for the job that he was doing. For instance, there are many computer programmers who do contract work for a year with a company and then do another contract with someone else...basically, his contract was expiring 3/25 so he wouldn't have any more work with the current company he was at.
    Hi cypher 50. My question was not clear. I was questioning their statement that somehow he wasn't stressed by "losing" his job because rather than being fired his contract was running out. If he didn't have another job lined up, I'm sure it was stressful and he was out of work anyway. Love, Blondie
  • doinmypart
    doinmypart

    I'm surprised this hasn't happened yet in a JW Congregation.

    • The elders intruding into someone's personal life,
    • or a Judicial Committee disfellowshipping a person,
    • or a person who loses his or her family to the Org due to shunning or blood policy,
    • or a person slaving for 30+ years always told to do more, the end is right around the corner, and now they are reaping unfulfilled dreams & a wasted life

    There are just too many scenarios with the WTS that can push a person to do something like this.

  • Golf
    Golf

    Just think of how many others like him are walking around? The 'silent' killers. You never know. Tomorrow it will be another story but a 'different' name.


    Golf

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