Saul was an anointed putz

by IP_SEC 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  IP_SEC

  
  
  So ya tonights bible reading is 1 sam 14-15. In chapter 14 we have the account of Saul's rash and foolish order/oath upon Israel's army. Saul was the anointed leader of Jehovah's people, yet he told them not to eat until the evening, an order which didn?t have God's blessing. Further Saul was worried about his vengeance and his name not Jehovah's.

  Does anyone see a comparison here with the FDS's desire for complete unquestionable obedience? Its obsession with the organization above Jehovah and Jesus? Wouldn?t we be foolish to follow orders unquestionably? Even Jehovah allows himself to be questioned (remember Abraham/Sodom)
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  BrendaCloutier

  Saul was a donkey's behind. The comparason with the GB is the same.
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  blondie

  Related question, since the prophecy said that Shiloh or the Messiah would come through the tribe of Judah, why was a king from the tribe of Benjamin chosen? It was if the intent was never to have Saul's descendants inherit the kingship in the first place.

  Hmmm? Should I make this a separate question?

  Blondie
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  IP_SEC

  Ya blondie I was just thinking about this wilst soaking in the tub. I guess the reason David didnt dispose Saul was because he was waiting on Jehovah to do it, so it wouldnt seem like David got where he was through intrigue. But Jehovah knew all along the tribe of Ben shouldnt have the kingship.

  Thats a good question, I was just making a statement for lurkers.

  LEO!!! where are you???
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  jeanniebeanz

  I think that order led the men to butcher a flock of something and eat it without bleeding it first so that Jehovah made them all sick, too.

  Weird...

  J
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  Narkissos

  This is an interesting chapter as to the challenge of "god-given" authority.

  1st by Jonathan against Saul:

  But Jonathan had not heard his father charge the troops with the oath; so he extended the staff that was in his hand, and dipped the tip of it in the honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth; and his eyes brightened. Then one of the soldiers said, "Your father strictly charged the troops with an oath, saying, 'Cursed be anyone who eats food this day.' And so the troops are faint." Then Jonathan said, "My father has troubled the land; see how my eyes have brightened because I tasted a little of this honey. How much better if today the troops had eaten freely of the spoil taken from their enemies; for now the slaughter among the Philistines has not been great."

  Then by the "people" against the divine-priestly logic implying that Jonathan must die for breaking the sacred oath.

  So Saul inquired of God, "Shall I go down after the Philistines? Will you give them into the hand of Israel?" But he did not answer him that day. Saul said, "Come here, all you leaders of the people; and let us find out how this sin has arisen today. For as the LORD lives who saves Israel, even if it is in my son Jonathan, he shall surely die!" But there was no one among all the people who answered him. He said to all Israel, "You shall be on one side, and I and my son Jonathan will be on the other side." The people said to Saul, "Do what seems good to you."
  Then Saul said, "O LORD God of Israel, why have you not answered your servant today? If this guilt is in me or in my son Jonathan, O LORD God of Israel, give Urim; but if this guilt is in your people Israel, give Thummim." And Jonathan and Saul were indicated by the lot, but the people were cleared. Then Saul said, "Cast the lot between me and my son Jonathan." And Jonathan was taken. Then Saul said to Jonathan, "Tell me what you have done." Jonathan told him, "I tasted a little honey with the tip of the staff that was in my hand; here I am, I will die." Saul said, "God do so to me and more also; you shall surely die, Jonathan!" Then the people said to Saul, "Shall Jonathan die, who has accomplished this great victory in Israel? Far from it! As the LORD lives, not one hair of his head shall fall to the ground; for he has worked with God today." So the people ransomed Jonathan, and he did not die. Then Saul withdrew from pursuing the Philistines; and the Philistines went to their own place.

  Actually the divine-priestly logic is not denied: as the vow has been broken and the compensation (Jonathan's death) was not offered there can be no real victory. But the Deuteronomistic history ascribes the fault to Saul's "rash" vow (v. 24), and grants a sort of "moral" right to Jonathan and the people against Yhwh's "anointed".
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  peacefulpete

  Saul never existed outside the legends. His very name "Saul" hebrew Shaul means "asked for". It is a classic example of a fictional character named for the role he played in the tale. The people "asked for" a King, they got one, and the King proved to be an oppressive and corrupt one as was "fortold" by the prophet. He was replaced by David "Beloved" who was "beloved of Yahweh. He was followed by Solomon, "Peace" who brought peace to the land.

  As Narkissos said there were earlier legends that were utilized/touched up by the later compilers for their own agenda. Intersrting in 1 Sam 16 and 17 is how Saul is said to have requested David's father to allow him to be his harp player (and known as acomplished warrior)yet later in chap 17 he doesn't know who David is or who his father is and david has never worn armor or used a sword! Lots of rough seams in this material.
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  Flash

  I think the mistake we once made, and the mistake current active witnesses are making, is thinking and believing that those leading the God's People/Organization could never leave the path God had set them on. That eveything is exactly the way God and Christ want it to be, without exception. Bible history clearly shows that Jehovah has a consistant way of dealing with humanity, from Adam and Eve till now, and that is, He informs His people of what He expects and then uses a mainly 'hands-off' approach with them. He allows His people to choose on there own how closely or not they will follow His way. That is why Israel repeatedly fell away and why early Christianity apostasized and why Jesus questioned whether He would really find the 'faith' when He returned (Luke 18: 8b). Also, because Jesus knew that God has given His people as an Organization and as individuals, the freedom to choose their own direction He warned what would happen if, when He returned, He found the Slave in charge of His people beating his fellow slaves and their menservants and maidservants (Matthew 24: 46-51 and Luke 12: 43-48). Jesus said "IF" for a reason.
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  El blanko

  Interesting thoughts Flash
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  Flash

  Thanks