4-1-05 WT Galileo and Catholic Church: Lessons to be learned (page 2)

frankiespeakin

All I can say thank God the religions of Christendom, Judahism and Islam don't have the same control as they used to, and thank God the trend will continue until they lose all control to censor.

Flash

Blondie you sure can pick em.

I won't go through the whole account of Galileo; he believed what his eyes told him, not the Church, and died under house arrest.
Do you see any parallels with how the WTS treats those that rightly question the Scriptural basis of their doctrines?
Blondie

Absolutely!! I'll bet the GB longs for the 'good old days' of the Dark Ages...and will bring them back if they can.

A Paduan

I'm thoroughly convinced that the wtbts has learned and understood well the lesson that one should never discount the learned observations of the single voice within ones own group

And that an elephant's hide pales in comparison to the head thickness of some cult members.

I wonder how many times the WTS has pointed out the 'wrongs' of the Catholic church. Ya know, even though the protestant churches revolted, I don't think their official publications have to drag out old trash about the Catholic church in order to try to attract new members.

codeblue

Blondie:

The WT "traditions" or "policies" are more important than what is written in the Bible........They are no different then the Pharisees in Jesus day.

CodeBlue

Spook

My conclusion is that almost all of the bible is dirivitive from 'pagan' cultures. But the galileo response is typical.

funkyderek

Here is an interesting perspective on the Galileo affair.
http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Issues/GalileoAffair.html

This is indeed interesting as it shows a trait typical of - but obviously not exclusive to - Watchtower defenders: blaming the victim. Just as "apostates" are told they should wait on Jehovah and not ask certain questions, the writer of the above article blames Galileo for being "tactless" and upsetting the Pope (who of course managed to remain infallible despite being wrong). The threat of torture was apparently "pure formality" and he wasn't sentenced to house arrest but instead "was permitted to spend [his remaining years] in a pleasant country house near Florence". A fine example of someone defending the indefensible. Thanks for reminding us that such doublethink is not confined to the Watchtower, Jeff.

Jaypeeto1

Actually, Jeff is correct. Papal infallibility is a non-issue here, since Catholicism holds that the pope is infallible only in very limited, extreme circumstances, namely when he is solemnly defining a DOGMA of faith or a DOGMA of morals. Infallibility does not extend to politics, medicine, science, etc.

Best, Jaypeeto

aqwsed12345

Galileo's case requires meticulous investigation, but one thing must be noted. Legends circulate about Galileo being tortured and his bravery. The truth is that he was neither tortured nor was he brave. The trial primarily raised not a scientific issue but a canonical one. Namely, Galileo illegally obtained church approval for his book and mocked the Pope in several pamphlets, who, while not closed off to Galileo's ideas and heeding the scientific consensus of his time, cautioned Galileo. Independently, the Pope took special care of Galileo's welfare. The case eventually took on a scientific character, and the ecclesiastical judges led themselves into error. However, there's an excuse here too because although Galileo's main assertion, that the earth rotates, proved to be fundamentally true, his proofs did not hold up. (For example, he used the tides as evidence, which are known not to be caused by the Earth's rotation but by the Moon's orbit around the Earth.) However, this does not affect the issue of the Church's infallibility, as the Church did not claim infallibility in condemning Galileo. Indeed, there was an error on the part of the Church as well, but to reproach an institution that has been operational for nearly 400 years for a single mistake is to show a double standard. Galileo, having reconciled with the Church in his old age, died a free man. His daughters became nuns. It is not true that the Church condemned Galileo's discovery. It only opposed the way Galileo recklessly and unnecessarily proclaimed his discoveries in a manner that seemed to confront the Holy Scriptures.

Galileo's arguments about the earth's motion were indeed not convincing, and the true discoverer of the earth's rotation was not him but Copernicus. The notion that Galileo was "burned" or that he was kept in a cruel prison in Rome is as historically inaccurate as the claim that he defiantly said before his ecclesiastical judges, "And yet it moves!" These are all anti-church fabrications, tales of freethinkers. Galileo lived and died as a deeply believing Catholic, and his best friends were indeed priests and Jesuits. However, he undoubtedly erred in positioning his astronomical views as contrary to the Holy Scriptures. This was unnecessary, as the Earth's rotation around the Sun is only seemingly in contradiction with the Holy Scriptures. Copernicus did not do this, and therefore the Church never acted against him. The issue with Galileo was not an outdated physical view but the defense of the authority of the Holy Scriptures.

In reality, during Galileo's time, the heliocentric model was not only new but also scientifically unproven. Many of the era's greatest scientists denied it, such as Tycho Brahe. The committees that interrogated Galileo requested that he not proclaim this system as fact until it was scientifically verified (because until then, it seemed more accurate to adhere to the Earth-centered worldview suggested by the Bible and espoused by most scientists of the time). When he broke this promise and wrote again about the system developed by Copernicus as a fact, he was brought before an ecclesiastical court. Although several church scholars supported him (!), those who voted against him were in the majority. He was nominally sentenced to prison but in reality had to live in "house arrest" at his home, where he could continue his work. Galileo remained a believer throughout his life, and towards the end, his nun daughter was his main consolation. As for the "unscientificness" of the church of the time, the entire system that Galileo advocated was developed by a devout church man: Copernicus; and -- as mentioned -- Galileo's circle of friends included many scholarly priests who tried to support him, but the part of the committee that sought a verdict proved to be stronger.

Around 1610, Galileo began to advocate for the correctness of the heliocentric worldview, for which he was indeed reported to the Inquisition, since some leaders of the Catholic Church had previously taken a stance in favor of the geocentric worldview. The Inquisition acquitted him, but even if they had not, he would not have lost much, as the Inquisition did not engage in burning people, torturing them, or other nonsense. They merely examined whether the accused person was worthy of the Church's care. Those who overtly denied the Church's teachings could no longer go to church, were not buried in consecrated cemeteries, and their children were not baptized. For atheists, this probably was not such a big loss...

Throughout his life, Galileo continuously argued in favor of the heliocentric worldview, including engaging in debates with church scholars. Nobody wanted to burn him or excommunicate him for this. In fact, in 1632, with the approval of Pope Urban VIII and the Inquisitorial body, his book "Dialogo sopra i due massimi sistemi del mondo" (Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems), which contained a summary of the debates that had taken place over the previous decades, was published. There is no clearer proof that the Church had no issue with his teachings. There was another reason why he still had to stand trial before the Inquisition. In the book, he argued in favor of the heliocentric worldview in his own name, and for the Ptolemaic geocentric theory under the name of a fictional character named Simplicio (meaning "Simpleton"). This complied with Pope Urban VIII's request that the book should present scientific arguments of the time for and against both worldviews and that it should also include his own papal opinion as the official stance of the Church. However, as a kind of snub, Galileo put the Pope's words into the mouth of Simplicio, making a laughingstock of the Pope. Urban VIII took the joke lightly, but he did not support the scientist further, who thus became vulnerable to the church leaders who represented significant political power at the time.

However, the Inquisition did not even bring him to trial for this reason. Posterity has thoroughly confused the story of the proceedings, and revisionists have turned it to their advantage. Galileo was summoned to Rome years before the publication of his book because he openly disputed certain passages of the Bible, deeming certain parts of the Holy Scriptures as nonsensical. The subject of the trial was his assertion that the Bible tells an untruth in the Book of Joshua, where it says:

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."

And in the Book of Psalms, where it states:

"Say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously."

The above quote can also be translated as "the earth stands firm, it does not move." Later Bible translations interpreted and translated it in the form seen here, which shows that the quote is to be understood allegorically. However, Galileo interpreted it literally and, in the name of science, questioned the word of the Holy Bible. The situation was worsened by the fact that quite a few theologians also wanted to interpret the obviously symbolic lines literally. The trial dragged on for years and was still ongoing when the "Dialogo sopra i due massimi sistemi del mondo" was published. Galileo eventually lost the trial, not least because of the aforementioned insolence towards the Pope, who withdrew his approval for the book. Posterity is told that the Church "banned" Galileo's book, but this is not true; it simply was not printed, which practically meant it was rendered impossible, as at that time, book printing and distribution were almost entirely under the supervision of the Church. It is also not true that he was sentenced to house arrest for the rest of his life, as the Inquisition did not have the power to order such a measure. There was no guard in front of Galileo's house; he was only threatened with the danger of excommunication if he left the building or received visitors. In his advanced age, the scientist lost his sight, and then it was permitted for him to receive guests. It was then that his last book written during his "captivity" reached the Netherlands, where it was printed. Those who have read the adventures of Till Eulenspiegel may know why it was there, of all places.

And although this is the first thing that comes to mind for everyone upon hearing Galileo's name, he never actually said "and yet it moves." This phrase was put into his mouth 124 years later by his first biographer, the also scholarly Vincenzo Viviani. It was 1761, a time when there was a great need for "enlightened" heroes who were persecuted in the "dark Middle Ages" for their progressive work... A few years later, the infamous Order of the Illuminati was formed, who from the start elevated Galileo as an icon, as a "victim of outdated religious dogmas," although he himself would have likely protested, being a deeply devout Roman Catholic.

NotFormer

That's all very interesting and all, but why resurrect this thread, instead of starting a new one and linking to and quoting this one?*

* I may have been guilty of the same thing; when you do a search, you don't always realise how old a thread is. I'm trying to mend my ways.

4-1-05 WT Galileo and Catholic Church: Lessons to be learned