JW Ben wants proof the WTBTS is in direct violation of Jesus' teachings

by Honesty 11 Replies latest jw friends

Honesty

In your post to me you said....

"The WTBTS is teaching a truth and a law code that is in direct violation of what Jesus taught.."
Alright start a thread that CLEARLY demonstartes that thw WTBTS is teaching a truth and a law code that is in direct violation of what Jesus taught

I received this PM from our friend, JW Ben. I sincerely hope we can help him become a JW apologetic (WTBTS apostate) soon. Ben, this is a start in clearly demonstrating the WTBTS is teaching lies instead of truth:
*** w85 6/1 29-30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication *** Having set the example in "all that is righteous" by immersion in the Jordan, Jesus could later give the command to his disciples: "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19, 20)
At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the implications of following Christ?s example.
The first question is:
On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
The second is:Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah?s Witnesses in association with God?s spirit-directed organization?
Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism.
Not a single Jehovah's Witness has been baptised in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit as Jesus commanded since the above baptism policy was instituted by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.
*** it-1 804 Faith *** The entire body of truths delivered by Jesus Christ and his inspired disciples constitutes the true Christian "faith." (Joh 18:37; Ga 1:7-9; Ac 6:7; 1Ti 5:8)
Ben, why don't you show this to the elders in your congregation and ask them why the GB is not following Jesus' instructions on baptism.
jaffacake

See WT 1 December 1981 page 29
?Happily, in the year 1962, Jehovah led his people to an understanding of the principle of relative subjection. It was seen that dedicated Christians must obey secular rulers as the "superior authorities," gladly recognizing these as "god's ministers," or servant for their good. ((Rom. 13:4) However, if these "authorities" ask them to violate God's laws, what then? Up to that point Christians have obeyed the command at Romans 13:1: "Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities." But this is qualified by Jesus' words, as recorded at Matthew 22:21: "Pay back, therefore, Caesar's things to Caesar, but God's things to God." So whenever "Caesar" asks Christians to do things contrary to God's will, they must place Jehovah's law ahead of "Caesar's."
This had also been referred to in a 1972 article:
WT 1972
?Then again, because Romans 13:1 had been construed to mean that the governments of the world must be given unqualified obedience, the witnesses interpreted the "higher powers" or "superior authorities" there mentioned as applying to Jehovah God and Christ Jesus. However, a closer examination of the context revealed that Romans 13:: does indeed refer to political governments of this world But by comparing this scripture with others, such as Acts 5:29, which states, "We must obey God as ruler rather than men," it was seen that the "subjection" mentioned at Romans 13:1 must be a relative subjection, not an unqualified one. That is, Christians are to be in subjection to the governments of this world so long as these do not ask Christians to go contrary to God's laws?.
Most readers of those articles would have accepted what they were being ?fed? as they would only be aware of the previous WT position on issues like military and alternative service (1929 to 1962) so would presumably have accepted the 1962 change as the bright light getting lighter.
I have a problem with this, as it is clear to me that this so called new understanding had been the position the WT Society from the 1880s and lasted right up to 1929. How was it a new understanding in 1962 when the principle of ?relative subjection? contained in Romans chapter 13 was perfectly understood by Russell and Rutherford and the Watchtower Society for decades. This is evident from the following:
Volume I of Studies in the Scriptures (1886) CT Russell described what Jesus & apostles taught as the Christian position:

? They taught the Church to obey the laws, and to respect those in authority because of their office, even if they were not personally worthy of esteem; to pay their appointed taxes, and, except where they conflicted with God's laws?(Acts 4:19; 5:29), to offer no resistance to any established law .? (
WT January 15, 1916. Russell, the editor of The Watch Tower and the author of the article in question, stated:
?The Bible directs the followers of Jesus to be subject to the powers that be. (Romans 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:13-17) But while seeking to be thus law-abiding in every respect, Christians are to recognize that there is still a higher law and a still higher Ruler, and are to be subject to the worldly powers only in the absence of a contrary admonition from the Higher Power - from God?.
The Watch Tower , July 15, 1916 , CT Russell wrote in the article, "Militarism and Conscience":
? While Christians are enjoined to be subject to the "Powers that be"?the kings, governors, magistrates, etc. - nevertheless this is not to be understood as meaning the renouncement of our fidelity to the King of kings and Lord of lords. He is our Over-Lord. Our allegiance to earthly lords and powers and their commands is merely to the extent that they do not conflict with the commands of our Over-Lord. The Jews in renouncing Jesus cried, "We have no king but Caesar"! The Christian's position is, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's but unto God the things that are God's." Whenever Caesar and his laws conflict with the divine requirements, all true soldiers of the cross are left no alternative?.
Even if the author were misinformed, I would find it hard to accept that whoever approved the 1972 and 1981 articles would not have known about the Watchtower?s pre-1929 clear understanding of ?relative subjection?.
Once again this raises the question of how, and to whom exactly, this new light is revealed?
Forscher

Careful, Honesty, the baptismal questions prior to 1985 did follow the proper formula so that there are some who were baptised in the proper names:

*** w73 5/1 p. 280 Baptizing Follows Discipling ***

25 After considering what has been published on the preceding pages, if you are one who has been learning and you wish to observe the commandments of Jesus Christ, what should you do? Peter reminds you that the way is open to you; Jehovah wants you to come into harmony with him: ?Jehovah . . . is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.? (2 Pet. 3:9; see also 2 Corinthians 5:18?6:2; Revelation 22:17.) After the Ethiopian had learned from Philip, he asked: ?What prevents me from getting baptized?? (Acts 8:36) If you feel the same about serving Jehovah God and taking Christ?s yoke upon you, we suggest that you consider the following two questions, which are asked of candidates for baptism:

(1) Have you repented of your sins and turned around, recognizing yourself before Jehovah God as a condemned sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him, the Father, through his Son Jesus Christ?

(2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?

However, there are other areas that can be addressed. For instance, The watchtower policy of Df'ng for smoking. There is no command in the New Testament to expell people for that. The whole thing is based on a very weak agrument for keeping our bodies "undefiled" and the coincidence that the Greek word for "sorcery" shares the same root as our word "pharmacy." Is that not a LAW THAT GOES BEYOND Christ's commands? And there are other things which could be brought up.
Honesty

Careful, Honesty, the baptismal questions prior to 1985 did follow the proper formula so that there are some who were baptised in the proper names:
I forgot. The Governing Body is the FDS and they got some 'New Light' from Joe Hoba that changes what Jesus said about baptism. Sorry, I'm such a doubter.
Sunspot

But Forscher, neither one of the questions you posted said the same reccommended words that Jesus said to use! I still don't see where the WTS (who are so nit-picky about everything else), has baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit!
It seems that the biblical directions were very clear---but once again---the WTS has to do things differently. It's their "policy" isn't it.
Annie
Inkie

Honesty: What did Jesus teach? A good thing to do (in order to make easier on yourself) would be to find a Bible that has Jesus' words written in red. You know, those red-lettered Bibles. Read ONLY the red and you will see what Jesus taught. And as you go along, you can ask yourself does the Society teach these things? And I mean, not, does the Society teach these things in theory but really and in truth teach another? So many many groups whether they are religious or political or whatever (like the scribes and Pharisees of old) teach one thing (for their public image) but really and truly teach another thing, for which Jesus said: Do not do according to their deeds (the things they TRULY believe and teach).
Jesus said at the end of the 28th Chapter of Matthew: Go . . . make disciples . . . teaching them to observe ALL THE THINGS I HAVE COMMANDED. So then, the disciples were to teach all the things JESUS commaned. What did he command?
Jesus commanded: Love your enemies. Do good to those hating you. Does the Society teach this? No, really? Does the Society teach this? Or instead are you taught to shun them. Do not do good to them even if it's obvious that your enemies need help? You tell me.
Jesus commanded: Unless you eat and drink, you have no life in you. Does the Society teach you to eat and drink? You tell me.
In the narrative where the scribes and Pharisees disfellowshiped a man because he put faith in Christ, what did Christ do? He went in search of that man. Thereby telling us what to do by his example when a person is disfellowshiped for believing Christ. Does the Society teach you to do that? I don't think so.
Jesus commanded: Forgive. Forgiveness. Luke 14:2 I think it is, when a person sins against you seven times (in one day) and he returns to you seven times (in that same day) asking your forgiveness, Jesus commands you to forgive in that very moment, that many number of times. Does the Society teach such forgiveness? How many times have there been when individuals before a judicial committee have begged and pleaded asking for forgiveness from the judicial committee, and no forgiveness is granted. Is this following the commands of Jesus.
God! the list can go on and on. And it's pathetic how the Society and the congregations do not follow what the Christ commanded. Like I suggested, read the words of Jesus and ONLY THE WORDS OF JESUS and you will see what he taught in contrast to what the Society teaches, what the congregations teach, and YES, even what the apostles taught in contrast to the things Jesus taught. Look! Read! Slowly! Carefully! And you will see.
Inkie
AlanF

For its entire history the Watchtower Society has been violating the spirit of Luke 21:8. This passage clearly tells Christians to avoid anyone who says, "the due time has approached". The Society even today says this, and hasn't learned any lessons from its own history of failed predictions.
What could be clearer?
AlanF
moshe

Despite Jesus' commands to take care of orphans,widows and the poor, the WTBS does not use it's millions for any public charitible work. They would deny the works of Mother Teresa as being Christian works, but would rather imply she was an agent of Satan due to her membership in the Catholic Church. They can't point to any similar JW Mother Teresa's but try to equate field sevice works with charitible works.The WTBS can organise a committee of elders to disfellowship you, but can't seem to organise a soup kitchen for the homeless. BUT, when financial need strikes the JW's will gladly accept help from the Red Cross and other charities. JW's are parasites. Moshe
toreador

All good suggestions.
stevenyc

http://www.watchtower.org/library/jt/article_08.htm
Questions Often Asked by Interested People
Do the Witnesses believe that their religion is the only right one?
Anyone who is serious about his religion should think that it is the right one. Otherwise, why would he or she be involved in it? Christians are admonished: "Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) A person should make sure that his beliefs can be supported by the Scriptures, for there is only one true faith. Ephesians 4:5 confirms this, mentioning "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." Jesus did not agree with the modern, relaxed view that there are many roads, many religions, all leading to salvation. Instead, he said: "Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they have found it. Otherwise, they would look for another religion.?Matthew 7:14

All quotes of the bible are from the NTW
Ephesians 4:5; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; They are saying 'for there is only one true faith'. So?
Let?s not take this out of context; here?s the entire chapter:
Ephesians 4:1-32
1 I, therefore, the prisoner in [the] Lord, entreat YOU to walk worthily of the calling with which YOU were called, 2 with complete lowliness of mind and mildness, with long-suffering, putting up with one another in love, 3 earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace. 4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.
7 Now to each one of us undeserved kindness was given according to how the Christ measured out the free gift. 8 Wherefore he says: ?When he ascended on high he carried away captives; he gave gifts [in] men.? 9 Now the expression ?he ascended,? what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower regions, that is, the earth? 10 The very one that descended is also the one that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might give fullness to all things.
11 And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, 12 with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, for the building up of the body of the Christ, 13 until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ; 14 in order that we should no longer be babes, tossed about as by waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error. 15 But speaking the truth, let us by love grow up in all things into him who is the head, Christ. 16 From him all the body, by being harmoniously joined together and being made to cooperate through every joint that gives what is needed, according to the functioning of each respective member in due measure, makes for the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
17 This, therefore, I say and bear witness to in [the] Lord, that YOU no longer go on walking just as the nations also walk in the unprofitableness of their minds, 18 while they are in darkness mentally, and alienated from the life that belongs to God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the insensibility of their hearts. 19 Having come to be past all moral sense, they gave themselves over to loose conduct to work uncleanness of every sort with greediness.
20 But YOU did not learn the Christ to be so, 21 provided, indeed, that YOU heard him and were taught by means of him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22 that YOU should put away the old personality which conforms to YOUR former course of conduct and which is being corrupted according to his deceptive desires; 23 but that YOU should be made new in the force actuating YOUR mind, 24 and should put on the new personality which was created according to God?s will in true righteousness and loyalty.
25 Wherefore, now that YOU have put away falsehood, speak truth each one of YOU with his neighbor, because we are members belonging to one another. 26 Be wrathful, and yet do not sin; let the sun not set with YOU in a provoked state, 27 neither allow place for the Devil. 28 Let the stealer steal no more, but rather let him do hard work, doing with his hands what is good work, that he may have something to distribute to someone in need. 29 Let a rotten saying not proceed out of YOUR mouth, but whatever saying is good for building up as the need may be, that it may impart what is favorable to the hearers. 30 Also, do not be grieving God?s holy spirit, with which YOU have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom.
31 Let all malicious bitterness and anger and wrath and screaming and abusive speech be taken away from YOU along with all badness. 32 But become kind to one another, tenderly compassionate, freely forgiving one another just as God also by Christ freely forgave YOU.
So, what does Paul mean be One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism?
More importantly One faith. Is he talking about a religion or sect or is it the Faith in Jesus and his resurrection, lets review the chapter.
11 And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, 12 with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, for the building up of the body of the Christ, 13 until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ; 14 in order that we should no longer be babes, tossed about as by waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error. 15 But speaking the truth, let us by love grow up in all things into him who is the head, Christ.17 This, therefore, I say and bear witness to in [the] Lord, that YOU no longer go on walking just as the nations also walk in the unprofitableness of their minds
23 but that YOU should be made new in the force actuating YOUR mind, 24 and should put on the new personality which was created according to God?s will in true righteousness and loyalty.
25 Wherefore, now that YOU have put away falsehood, speak truth each one of YOU with his neighbor, because we are members belonging to one another
30 Also, do not be grieving God?s holy spirit, with which YOU have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom.
32 But become kind to one another, tenderly compassionate, freely forgiving one another just as God also by Christ freely forgave YOU
Where is Paul stating an earthly organization is required for salvation?
His whole emphasis in this chapter is to acknowledge Christ?s ransom as the means to salvation. To have faith in that. This word has been twisted by many religions and sects, where they proclaim themselves as ?the faith?, taking away the true responsibility of faith in Jesus, and diverting it to themselves.
Mathew 24:3,4; 3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: ?Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things??
4 And in answer Jesus said to them: ?Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ?I am the Christ,? and will mislead many.
Luke 21: 8 He said: ?Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ?I am he,? and, ?The due time has approached.? Do not go after them.
Also lets look at
Bible: New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

Online Bible: New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures
Galatians 5:1-26
1 For such freedom Christ set us free. Therefore stand fast, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery.
2 See! I, Paul, am telling YOU that if YOU become circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to YOU. 3 Moreover, I bear witness again to every man getting circumcised that he is under obligation to perform the whole Law. 4 YOU are parted from Christ, whoever YOU are that try to be declared righteous by means of law; YOU have fallen away from his undeserved kindness. 5 For our part we by spirit are eagerly waiting for the hoped-for righteousness as a result of faith. 6 For as regards Christ Jesus neither circumcision is of any value nor is uncircumcision, but faith operating through love [is].
7 YOU were running well. Who hindered YOU from keeping on obeying the truth? 8 This sort of persuasion is not from the One calling YOU. 9 A little leaven ferments the whole lump. 10 I am confident about YOU who are in union with [the] Lord that YOU will not come to think otherwise; but the one who is causing YOU trouble will bear [his] judgment, no matter who he may be. 11 As for me, brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? Then, indeed, the stumbling block of the torture stake has been abolished. 12 I wish the men who are trying to overturn YOU would even get themselves emasculated.
13 YOU were, of course, called for freedom, brothers; only do not use this freedom as an inducement for the flesh, but through love slave for one another. 14 For the entire Law stands fulfilled in one saying, namely: ?You must love your neighbor as yourself.? 15 If, though, YOU keep on biting and devouring one another, look out that YOU do not get annihilated by one another.
16 But I say, Keep walking by spirit and YOU will carry out no fleshly desire at all. 17 For the flesh is against the spirit in its desire, and the spirit against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, so that the very things that YOU would like to do YOU do not do. 18 Furthermore, if YOU are being led by spirit, YOU are not under law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God?s kingdom.
22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires.
25 If we are living by spirit, let us go on walking orderly also by spirit. 26 Let us not become egotistical, stirring up competition with one another, envying one another.
The Watchtower and Bible Tract Society of Pennsylvania is NOT Jesus. It IS NOT the Faith we should bear witness to. If we go against its (the wtbts) rulings we are punished. I see no evidence that either Paul, Matthew, Luke or Jesus prophecied keeping steadfast in an earthly organization of rules and traditions. This organization is only one thing, It is a SECT.
steve

JW Ben wants proof the WTBTS is in direct violation of Jesus' teachings

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