by Pole 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
typical apocaliyptic style
A "typical apocalypse" is defined as your average, everyday apocalypse, as distinguished from the ones that only happen at the end of the world.
Considering the factual data denying any unusual seismic behaviour since 1914, and the protracted dely of Armageddon, I think it would be prudent for the society to downgrade the earthquate threat from literal to figurative, or better yet, to put it in the same category as Jesus presence and the war in heaven - eg: invisible.
Well, I think there was certainly an increase in reported earthquakes after 1900. But that's because of new communicationdevices like telephone and radio.
b
Well, you mean "there were to be earthquakes in typical apocaliyptic style", so there's nothing special about them? I still think for earthquakes to be a "sign of doom and despair" they have to occur in a special way just like plagues. The fact they are mentioned in apposition to the fulfillment of a prophecy does indicate some correlation, doesn't it? Otherwise it makes no sense to mention them. If that doesn't mean an increased frequency or a greater effect then what does it mean? Of course I fully agree this "prophecy" had nothing to do with any distant future. Thanks for your answer anyway.
Pole, what I meant by 'typical apocalyptic style' is that the motif of cosmological and sesmic events were an anciently standard theophanic descriptions. How many times in the OT does God appear accompanied by earthquakes and rocking or shaking of the mountains? a bunch. for example:
Is 29:6
There shall be a visitation from the Lord of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with whirlwind and tempest, and the flame of a devouring fire.
In the apocalyptical books such as 1 Enoch, 4Ezra, 2 baruch etc we see this same motif associated witht he return of God (or his messiah) to visit Israel. for example:
4 Ezra Measure carefully in your mind, and when you see that some of the predicted signs have occurred, then you will know that it is the very time when the Most High is about to visit the world that he has made. So when there shall appear in the world earthquakes, tumult of peoples, intrigues of nations, wavering of leaders, confusion of princes, then you will know that it was of these that the Most High spoke from the days that were of old, from the beginning.
2 Baruch:
2 Baruch: 27 1 And He answered and said unto me: 'Into twelve parts is that time divided, and each one of 2 them is reserved for that which is appointed for it. In the first part there shall be the beginning 3, 4 of commotions. And in the second part (there shall be) slayings of the great ones. And in 5, 6 the third part the fall of many by death. And in the fourth part the sending of the sword. And 7 in the fifth part famine and the withholding of rain. And in the sixth part earthquakes and 8, 9 terrors. [Wanting .] And in the eighth part a multitude of spectres and attacks of the Shedim. 10, 11, 12 And in the ninth part the fall of fire. And in the tenth part rapine and much oppression, And in 13 the eleventh part wickedness and unchastity. And in the twelfth part confusion from the mingling 14 together of all those things aforesaid. For these parts of that time are reserved, and shall be 15 mingled one with another and minister one to another. For some shall leave out some of their own, and receive (in its stead) from others, and some complete their own and that of others, so that those may not understand who are upon the earth in those days that this is the consummation of the times.
6 And when those things which were predicted have come to pass, Then shall confusion fall upon all men, And some of them shall fall in battle, And some of them shall perish in anguish, 7 And some of them shall be destroyed by their own. Then the Most High will reveal those peoples whom He has prepared before, And they shall come and make war with the leaders that shall then be left. 8 And it shall come to pass that whosoever gets safe out of the war shall die in the earthquake, And whosoever gets safe out of the earthquake shall be burned by the fire, And whosoever gets safe out of the fire shall be destroyed by famine. 9 [And it shall come to pass that whosoever of the victors and the vanquished gets safe out of and 10 escapes all these things aforesaid will be delivered into the hands of My servant Messiah.] For all the earth shall devour its inhabitants.
1 Enoch:
All shall be afraid, and the Watchers be terrified.
6 Great fear and trembling shall seize them, even to the ends of the earth. The lofty mountains shall be troubled, and the exalted hills depressed, melting like a honeycomb in the flame. The earth shall be immerged, and all things which are in it perish; while judgment shall come upon all, even upon all the righteous:
7 But to them shall he give peace: he shall preserve the elect, and towards them exercise clemency.
Also the sun darkening,moon turning red and clouds associated with the return of the Christ are all part of a well used motif. Therefore the use of these same 'signs' was not so much to be a catalogue of events to watch for as much as a pronouncement that the return was to be preceeded by the usual dark days of doom symbolised/illustrated by the recurring motif.
You have to step away from the Adventist spin and see Mark 13 in it's cultural context to understand what I mean.
peacefulpete,
You have to step away from the Adventist spin and see Mark 13 in it's cultural context to understand what I mean.
As an non-believer, I have no investment in the Adventist or any fundamentalist perspective, but I now agree that my JW past may have limited the range of possible interpretations I considered for this type of "prophecies". To put it more bluntly, I'm beginning to see what you meant now. Thank you again for providing me with this new perspective. Something profitable (at est for me) came out of my "unprofitable" questions.
One more question: Would you say that the concept of "prophecies" (at least in the Adventist sense) is totally out of keeping with the historical context of the New Testament? Sorry if this question sounds lame. I refute prophecies at a different level (for me they're metaphysical nonsense), so I'd appreciate your historical perspective.
Regards,
Pole
The Pauline christians felt "prophets" were everywhere. They felt their were some in each congo that had this power of foresight and they felt satan was giving this power to his agents. The Gospel traditions seem to have placed less emphasis on it yet the idea is present. Mark 13 is presented as a prophecy it's just that the subtle nuances have been misinterpreted strictly literally.
I think the prevailing attitude was, "What good is a religion that can't tell us what we can't otherwise know?" ie If a religion is from the gods then they must necessarily possess knowledge that only the gods would know.
There aren't more quakes (or more disasters in general) than previously, but we sure know about them quickly, no matter where they occur
Possibly, because the world is a much more crowded place, the earthquakes are greater with regard to the human toll in lives.
the author of Mark 13 never even pretended to fortell events 2000 years later
Agree with that statement. Matthew 24 and Mark 13 was fullfilled during lifetime of the early Christains.
