To AlanF,
Sorry but I might be missing something and I apologize upfront
But did I read it wrong?
Does 597 = 587 ????
hawk
Wrong date
by tattoogrl333 44 Replies latest jw friends
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individual
Fred Hall - I agree with you that Jesus has the sayings that lead to everlasting life but what I do not agree with is that the organisation has the backing of Jehovah or Jesus so therefore they do not have the sayings that lead to everlasting life. If you want to spend the next 25 years finding this out - go ahead.
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scholar
bjc2012
I disagree with your views on the meaning of trampling in Luke 21: 24 in connection with the Gentile Times. The expression 'estai patoumene' is a future passive participle and literally means 'will be being trampled' which shows that the action had already began and concludes into the future. Theologians recognize that this passage has both eschatological and historiographical significance.
Alan F
You claim that "there are no major holes in the Neo-Babylonian chronology. It even fits perfectly with the Bible". This implies that there are minor holes in such chronology. You thus admit that such chronology is fallible and imperfect. If such a chronology is as accurate as you claim, what date do you give for the Fall of Jerusalem and what biblical evidence supports such a claim?
Further, you assert that JW chronology cannot explain certain Bible passages, which passages are these? What are the most reliable historical sources that you refer to? You make wild exaggerated claims upon a subject that you know nothing about. If you are so smart about this issue then provide the date for Jerusalem's fall and I can add your name to a list of prominent chronologists who cannot agree as to when key events occurred during that crucial period of the Judean Monarchy.
scholar
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thinkers wife
Tattoo,
First of all let me just say, I missed your beginning posts because I was at the beach on vacation for a week. So what I am about to say is based on this post without the benefit of your background.
As for the dates being wrong, it has already been commented on pretty extensively. But for me who was a witness for some thirty eight years, if the date of 607 is incorrect, which it appears to be, then the whole belief system of JW's comes tumbling down like a house of cards. Because all their predictions and calculations become incorrect. It also negates their own teachings about no one knowing the day or the hour, it shoots down the importance they place on not fixating on a date.
Briefly on your Bible Study conductor. I had a study with a woman, who studied with me simply because of personality. I never did walk the completely straight and narrow road when I was a Witness. Too free spirited by nature. She and I became the best of friends, with a friendship so deep that, IMO, happens only once in a life time. When we started studying she had a total of nine tatoos. She was very embarrassed by it. I kept telling her not to worry about it. I helped her ignore the looks and the talking behind hands about it.
In June of 2000 I disassociated myself from the organization. Guess what, my wonderful, once in a lifetime friend refuses to talk to me, because she could get disfellowshipped for associating with me. Heartbreaking for both of us. I just keep hoping she will see the light. I regret deeply that I was the one who taught her the very things that have destroyed our relationship.
My advice. Do your research and examine your feelings very closely. Don't let your friendship with your study conductor let you make your decision for you!
TW -
bjc2012
Scholar,
I shall return the compliment and disagree with what you said.
I pretend no scholarship in Greek. But I do have a few Greek Lexicons. I checked Strong’s Concordance and found that the Greek word ‘eimi’ (#1510) is equivalent to our language phrase ‘to be.’ The Greek word used in Luke 21:24 is ‘estai’ (#2071 in Strong’s). According to Strong’s, this word is the future of ‘eimi.’ I then checked Liddell and Scott’s Greek English Lexicon under the word ‘estai’ and it confirmed Strong’s definition, that this word is the sing. fut. of ‘eimi.’ The Greek word ‘estai’ is translated in every Bible translation that I’ve had opportunity to check (15) as ‘will be.’ It could be that there is some disagreement on the meaning of these words, I don’t know. Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable can help. But this is not the main reason for my saying that this event is a future event.
The WTS has, as usual, taken this verse completely out of its context in making their application. In this chapter of Luke, Jesus is discussing events of the end, as in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. Beginning with verse 20 of Luke 21, here is what he said in describing what this trampling would be like. It reads: 20 “Furthermore, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her; 22 because these are days for meting out justice, that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant woman and the ones suckling a baby in those days! For there will be great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.”
If verse 24 applies to Babylon, then verses 20-23 would also apply. But I would have a problem with that because ‘Jerusalem is surrounded by armies’ (plural not singular as in the Babylonian army or the Roman army). Babylon did not trample on Jerusalem, it destroyed Jerusalem and deported the people except a few that they left but who later fled to Egypt. I don’t believe that the Jews were given any choice to ‘flee to the mountains’ at that time. They were told by Jeremiah to put their necks under the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar or face ‘pestilence, famine and sword.’ (Jeremiah 27:8) Verse 22 of Luke 21 says that ‘these are days for meting out justice, that all things written may be fulfilled.’ This fulfillment could not have begun with Babylon as ‘all things’ had not been written. No, the nation had not yet ‘filled up the measure of their sins,’ such that it could be said that there was ‘great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people.’ Was Jerusalem ‘led captive into ALL the nations’ when they were taken into Babylon?
Therefore, at Luke 21:24, was Jesus making reference to events that had already occurred and were still occurring; or was he specifically speaking about future events when he said that Jerusalem would be trampled on by the nations? By using the phrase ‘all the nations’ Jesus was here showing that this trampling would be a world-wide event occurring at the end or conclusion of a system of things.
Theologians recognize that this passage has both eschatological and historiographical significance.
They do, 1st century and end-time. But they do not agree with the WTS' explanation of the what the Gentile Times are.
bjc