by M.J. 48 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I submit therefore that the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses is very extraordinary and as proof of that I submit the contents of this forum and as further witness every post made here at JWD.
You are mistaken. If someone spends their entire life telling other people that they escaped an ax murderer and warning others of the danger, they are not proving that the ax murderer was extrordinary, just horrifying.
Jean
THE ONLY THING I FIND EXTRAORDINARY ABOUT THE WBTS IS THEIR.
EXTRAORDINARY NEGATIVE EFFECT ON ITS MEMBERS.
EXTRAORDINARY PUNITIVE ACTIONS.
EXTRAORDINARY FAILURES AT BEING PROPHETS,
EXTRAORDINARY DISHONESTY.
THIS COULD GO ON FOR PAGES SO I WILL STOP HERE.
Outoftheorg
To a large degree, I agree with JT and his outlook on life and the universe in general and seeing God there.
At least I do to that point where I no longer know or understand what he is trying to say.
This is not saying that JT is wrong or unable to deliver his message. It is, I think, due to my pragmatic thought processes and a suspiscious feeling about anything involving God and mysterious "to me" about things I can't see, feel, smell or taste.
Your last post I found I could understand most of it. So, either you are getting better at delivery or I am getting better at understanding esoteric belief systems.
Either way, I enjoy your posts.
Outoftheorg
Fairmind - I agree that the Watchtower organisation, the GB, or any other level of heirarchy within the org cannot constitute the FDS. The 8,000 or so in the org that claim to be of the anointed, and thus of the FDS, are all enthralled to the false creeds that the WTS perpetuates, so these ones are not also guilty of preaching falsehoods and lies, ie, not feeding the domestics properly. Thus the holy spirit must not be operating fully on these ones either. So it's all highly dodgy. So Don Cameron and many others have demonstrably proved that the WTBS could not possibly have been appointed as God's sole channel of spiritual enlightenment and feeding. However it remains that Jesus still said that upon his return he would find persons (slaves/servants) who are faithfully feeding others at that time. There are 2 appointments according to Jesus, an appointment to do the initial feeding (likely the anointing of the holy spirit on these ones), then an appointment on his return 'over all his belongings' (likely the reward to immortal life in heaven for proving faithful to death). That is why I still believe that there are genuine anointed individuals scattered around, either in the org or throughout a whole lot of religious orgs, that will in time prove to be these faithful and discreet ones that Jesus finds when he finally returns. The problem is that the JW's and the likes of e-watchman believe that these ones have already been harvested into the JW organisation and are exclusively to be found only therein (this is because of their attaching so much important to the fact that only JW's, and a few other small groups, have substantively eliminated Babylonish pagan dogmas from their doctrines ). However these ones ignore the growing mountain of evidence that this cannot be. The litmus tests are - sweet and bitter cannot bubble forth from the same fountain, God is a God of peace, not of disorder, a little leaven ferments the whole lump, and by their fruits you will recognise them. So the only logical conclusion is God has never and cannot now be operating through the WTS leaderhip, because they do not measure up against the bible's own litmus tests. The WTS spews forth bitter with the sweet, They have leaven in their teachings, They have falsely prophesied and perpetuate blatantly articial interpretations, and they have produced rotten fruitage with their unreasonable blood and child molestation policies. So to my mind, all the JW's are is another squabbling religious denomination and sect, the only difference is they are more refined doctrinally than the others. They are, in all likelihood, just a shadowy prototype of the real true form of organised worship that is yet to be gathered by Christ (which may well not even occur in our lifetimes!)
Dear Out,
Please don't take anything I say as a "belief system", esoteric or not.
The main blinding factor that supports a sense that we are a broken-individual-separate-from-Life, is our BELIEFS. The very last thing I want to do is add to that.
We unquestionably accept so very much of our beliefs as real and true, that we have lost all ability to even see that they are just conceptual abstracts. Just thoughts. Living in a virtual world, a thought-world disconnects consciousness from actual Reality.
Have you ever experienced a moment that was so totally void of thought and the mental make-up of personal identity that there was no separation between you and Life? There was no outside? Perhaps it was while making love; or viewing an extremely beautiful sight in nature; or during the birth of a child; or even while just quietly sitting and petting the cat. There are moments when our mental-identity-facsimile-machine stops and there is a naked and raw ONENESS with Life. Generally we experience it rarely if at all. HOWEVER, this Oneness, is our true and natural Self. Whereas separation, other, an isolated "me", are all mental fabrications which are not at all real or true. We are not a "we", or a "me", we are ONE LIFE/CONSCIOUSNESS.
When there is total stillness and all mental interpretation and conceptualization is quiescent, where are the separating boundaries and walls then? Where do I, begin or end? I am not pointing to some meditative stupor, and certainly not some belief, but rather clear conscious-awareness void of any mental filters. What is TRUE?
Please do not make this into just another element of a complex belief system and identity. Better to ignore it and think it crazy. Rather, see how far you can consciously enter into unmoving stillness. Become intensely aware of no thing. Go deeper and see. What are you, really? Other than thought and beliefs, what are you? Is there an underlying Truth that units all?
I can't tell you. I can only say that thought, or beliefs, or any or all intellectual gymnastics, will not get you to where you already are. It's not about believing, it's about seeing.
j
Thanks for taking the time to respond to me JT.
I guess the difference between you and more orthodox persons like myself is that I believe that God, the 'source' of all life, this powerful 'alien', the creator, the universal life force, whatever you want to call this thing, this entity, most definitely has a mind and a personality, and that this entity has chosen to communicate with the human family, and that he has done this through sacred scripture, most of which constitutes the bible. He has also revealed his nature and personality to us by his Son Jesus Christ, who was a perfect reflection of his creator. Hence, although in the long run it may seem that humans go a bit overboard in 'anthromorphosizing' this great divine source, this is only because this is how this being has chosen to reveal himself to us: in simple, almost child-like ways that we can easily understand and grasp. I'm sure that ultimately the truth is far more awesome and mindblowing than we can imagine, but that is how God has chosen to reveal himself to us at this present stage in human history.
I realise of course that there's a lot of premises underpinning that conclusion, such as my belief that the bible is substantially God's written word to mankind, and the conviction I sustain that Jesus was who he claimed he was, notions which no doubt you have long since discarded, but that is my personal choice, based on my own research and faith. You may think this more traditional approach is all bullsh*t and sphinctor material and that the only real way to find the truth is through the new-agey philosophical mysticism you espouse, but that is also your personal choice. Good luck to us both.
Thanks for your reply JT.
Since you go to the trouble to post a way of viewing life and our relationship to the universe and all that exists, you certainly must believe what you are saying and living.
So I view this as your "belief system".
I do not view it as being the same as what we see in the various religious groups and the way these become ridged, with rules and lots of do and do not and dependence on the legitimacy of ancient tribal books.
Books that were chosen from a group where many were discarded and some chosen for the benefit of a political ruler. Constantine.
What you describe, seems to me to be somewhat like the way the american Indian viewed his life and the earth and animals and a supreme source of all things.
Anyway as time goes by, I find myself drifting towards this direction.
Although I have only had one experience where I felt overwhelmed by the beauty of nature and I had a feeling of love for everything.
Even myself.
Outoftheorg
Too bad I didn't see this reply sooner:
If the WT is NOT extraordinary as you say, then why in the world are you and all these other people spending part of your life/time on it?
I was hoping you could come up with something better than that!
Man, oh man would I LOVE to make the WTS a distant memory! To me they were always a totally insignificant little sect that never even warranted a 2nd thought until I was put into the situation where my wife became involved, and she nearly lost her life due to their blood directives. Now THAT is extraordinary, I guess! Now I'm under stress as to how to deal with this intrusion in my life and how this will affect my young family, which is more important than myself, in my eyes.
People caught up in a high control group very characteristically have a totally skewed sense of reality about how everything centers around their little group.
The anwser is simple...
***
w72 4/1 p. 197 ?They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them? ***IDENTIFYING
THE "PROPHET""These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? The clergy of the so-called "Christian" nations hold themselves before the people as being the ones commissioned to speak for God. But, as pointed out in the previous issue of this magazine, they have failed God and failed as proclaimers of his kingdom by approving a man-made political organization, the League of Nations (now the United Nations), as "the political expression of the Kingdom of God on earth."
However, Jehovah did not let the people of Christendom, as led by the clergy, go without being warned that the League was a counterfeit substitute for the real kingdom of God. He had a "prophet" to warn them. This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah?s Christian witnesses. They are still proclaiming a warning, and have been joined and assisted in their commissioned work by hundreds of thousands of persons who have listened to their message with belief.
Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?"
We know what the record shows... Failed Dates... "New Light".... you get the picture.
So let Deuteronomy 18:20-22 be your guide:
20 "?However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.
So if we compare the WTS's record to Deuteronomy 18:20-22 we get a pretty clear answer
In conclusion if the WTS is Gods organization, then God's all screwed-up, dosen't know what he's doing ( he dosen't seem to be able to make up his/her mind, flip/flop...can't get dates right either )
Is it God's organization?
Acadian
