Yeah, 5 days on the board and I am getting things!! Seriously, that was a major thought that I didn't understand until being on this board and talking to people. Thanks bebu
Salvation Discussion
by Shawn 99 Replies latest watchtower bible
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NewLight2
Shawn,
Ask your gf if she will provide you with a copy of each of the following:
1. The 'Knowledge Book' - ("Knowledge - That Leads to Everlasting Life")
This is first book that a JW "Study" uses in their 'free Bible study'.
2. You will need a copy of the NWT - New World Translation Bible
3. Also a copy of the WT published 'Reasoning Book' - ("Reasoning from the Scriptures")
This last book will help you answer questions the JW way!
The following is a quote from the 'Reasoning' book pp. 356 - 361
Are there scriptures that definitely show that some will never be saved?
2 Thess. 1:9, RS: "They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." (Italics added.)
Rev. 21:8, RS: "As for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."
Matt. 7:13, 14, RS: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
Once a person is saved, is he always saved?
Jude 5, RS: "I desire to remind you, though you were once for all fully informed, that he who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." (Italics added.)
Matt. 24:13, RS: "He who endures to the end will be saved." (So a person's final salvation is not determined at the moment that he begins to put faith in Jesus.)
Phil. 2:12, RS: "As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (This was addressed to "the saints," or holy ones, at Philippi, as stated in Philippians 1:1. Paul urged them not to be overly confident but to realize that their final salvation was not yet assured.)
Heb. 10:26, 27, RS: "If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries." (Thus the Bible does not go along with the idea that no matter what sins a person may commit after he is "saved" he will not lose his salvation. It encourages faithfulness. See also Hebrews 6:4-6, where it is shown that even a person anointed with holy spirit can lose his hope of salvation.)
Is anything more than faith needed in order to gain salvation?
Eph. 2:8, 9, RS: "By grace ["undeserved kindness," NW] you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-not because of works, lest any man should boast." (The entire provision for salvation is an expression of God's undeserved kindness. There is no way that a descendant of Adam can gain salvation on his own, no matter how noble his works are. Salvation is a gift from God given to those who put faith in the sin-atoning value of the sacrifice of his Son.)
Heb. 5:9, RS: "He [Jesus] became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him." (Italics added.) (Does this conflict with the statement that Christians are "saved through faith"? Not at all. Obedience simply demonstrates that their faith is genuine.)
Jas. 2:14, 26, RS: "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." (A person does not earn salvation by his works. But anyone who has genuine faith will have works to go with it-works of obedience to the commands of God and Christ, works that demonstrate his faith and love. Without such works, his faith is dead.)
Acts 16:30, 31, RS: "'Men, what must I do to be saved?' And they [Paul and Silas] said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.'" (If that man and his household truly believed, would they not act in harmony with their belief? Certainly.)
If Someone Says-
'I'm saved'
You might reply: 'I am glad to know that, because it tells me that you believe in Jesus Christ. The work in which I am sharing is one that Jesus assigned his followers to do, that is, to tell others about the establishment of his Kingdom. (Matt. 24:14)' Then perhaps add: (1) 'What is that Kingdom? What will its coming mean to the world? (Dan. 2:44)' (2) 'What conditions will there be here on earth under that heavenly government? (Ps. 37:11; Rev. 21:3, 4)'
Or you could say: 'Then you appreciate what the apostle Peter said, here at Acts 4:12, don't you? . . . Have you ever wondered by whom the name of Jesus was given for us to put faith in it?' Then perhaps add: (1) 'Jesus himself tells us. (John 17:3)' (2) 'Notice that Jesus said he had made his Father's name known. (John 17:6) What is His personal name? What associations does it convey to your mind? (Ex. 3:15; 34:5-7)'
'Are you saved?'
You might reply: 'So far, I am. I say that because I am also aware of the Bible's counsel not to be overconfident of our standing. Are you acquainted with this text? (1 Cor. 10:12)' Then perhaps add: 'What is the reason for that? To persons who had been born again and had the hope of heavenly life (Heb. 3:1), the apostle Paul wrote . . . (Heb. 3:12-14) It is by growing in knowledge of God's Word that we fortify our faith.'
Or you could say: 'I could answer that by simply saying, Yes. But did you know that the Bible speaks of more than one salvation? For instance, have you ever considered the significance of Revelation 7:9, 10, 14? . . . So, there will be people who will be saved through the coming great tribulation, to live right here on earth. (Matt. 5:5)'
'Do you accept Jesus as your personal Savior?'
See pages 219, 220, under the heading "Jesus Christ."
'You say that only 144,000 are going to be saved'
You might reply: 'I am glad that you brought that up so I can tell you what we really believe. Salvation is open to just as many people as will demonstrate true faith in the provision that God has made through Jesus. But the Bible says that only 144,000 will go to heaven to be with Christ. Have you ever seen that in the Bible? . . . It is here at Revelation 14:1, 3.' Then perhaps add: (1) 'What will they do in heaven? (Rev. 20:6)' (2) 'It is obvious that they will be ruling over someone. Who might that be? . . . (Matt. 5:5; 6:10)' -
NewLight2
Here another quote from the 'Reasoning Book' that you might find helpful.
Born Again
Definition: Being born again involves being baptized in water ("born from water") and begotten by God?s spirit ("born from . . . spirit"), thus becoming a son of God with the prospect of sharing in the Kingdom of God. (John 3:3-5) Jesus had this experience, as do the 144,000 who are heirs with him of the heavenly Kingdom.
Why is it necessary for any Christians to be "born again"?
God has purposed to associate a limited number of faithful humans with Jesus Christ in the heavenly Kingdom
Luke 12:32: "Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom."
Rev. 14:1-3: "I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand . . . who have been bought from the earth." (See pages 166, 167, under the heading "Heaven.")
Humans cannot go to heaven with bodies of flesh and blood
1 Cor. 15:50: "This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God?s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption."
John 3:6: "What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit."
Only persons who have been "born again," thus becoming God?s sons, can share in the heavenly Kingdom
John 1:12, 13: "As many as did receive him [Jesus Christ], to them he gave authority to become God?s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man?s will, but from God." ("As many as did receive him" does not mean all humans who have put faith in Christ. Notice who is being referred to, as indicated by ÞJoh 1 Üverse 11 ["his own people," the Jews]. The same privilege has been extended to others of mankind, but only to a "little flock.")
Rom. 8:16, 17: "The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God?s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together."
1 Pet. 1:3, 4: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you."
What will they do in heaven?
Rev. 20:6: "They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years."
1 Cor. 6:2: "Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?"
Can a person who is not "born again" be saved?
Rev. 7:9, 10, 17: "After these things [after the apostle John heard the number of those who would be "born again," those who would make up spiritual Israel and would be with Christ in heaven; compare Romans 2:28, 29 and Galatians 3:26-29] I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ?Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.? . . . ?The Lamb [Jesus Christ], who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life.?"
After listing many pre-Christian persons of faith, Hebrews 11:39, 40 says: "All these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, as God foresaw something better for us, in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us." (Who are here meant by "us"? Hebrews 3:1 shows that they are "partakers of the heavenly calling." The pre-Christian persons who had faith, then, must have a hope for perfect life somewhere other than in heaven.)
Ps. 37:29: "The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it."
Rev. 21:3, 4: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."
Is it possible for a person to have God?s spirit and yet not be "born again"?
Regarding John the baptizer, Jehovah?s angel said: "He will be filled with holy spirit right from his mother?s womb." (Luke 1:15) And Jesus later said: "Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is [Why? Because John will not be in the heavens and so there was no need for him to be "born again"]. But from the days of John the Baptist until now [when Jesus stated this] the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press."?Matt. 11:11, 12.
The spirit of Jehovah was "operative" upon David and "spoke" by him (1 Sam. 16:13; 2 Sam. 23:2), but nowhere does the Bible say that he was "born again." There was no need for him to be "born again," because, as Acts 2:34 says: "David did not ascend to the heavens."
What identifies persons today who have God?s spirit?
See pages 381, 382, under the main heading "Spirit."
If Someone Says?
?I?ve been born again?
You might reply: ?That means that you expect someday to be with Christ in heaven, doesn?t it? . . . Have you ever wondered what those who go to heaven will do there?? Then perhaps add: (1) ?They will be kings and priests, ruling with Christ. (Rev. 20:6; 5:9, 10) Jesus said that these would be just a "little flock." (Luke 12:32)? (2) ?If they are kings, there must also be subjects over whom they will rule. Who will these be? . . . Here are some points that I found to be very interesting when they were drawn to my attention. (Ps. 37:11, 29; Prov. 2:21, 22)?
?Have you been born again??
You might reply: ?I find that what people mean by "born again" is not always the same. Would you tell me what it means to you??
Or you could say: ?You want to know whether I have accepted Jesus as my Savior and have received holy spirit, is that right? May I assure you that the answer is Yes; otherwise I would not be talking to you about Jesus.? Then perhaps add: (1) ?But when I think of having the holy spirit, I find that evidence of that spirit is sadly missing in many who claim to be Christians. (Gal. 5:22, 23)? (2) ?Would you enjoy living on this earth if everyone reflected those godly qualities? (Ps. 37:10, 11)?
Another possibility: ?If you mean by that, "Have I accepted Christ as my Savior?" the answer is Yes. All of Jehovah?s Witnesses have done that. But, to us, being born again involves much more than that.? Then perhaps add: (1) ?When Jesus spoke about being born again he said that it was necessary in order to enter the Kingdom of God, that is, to be part of God?s Kingdom, his heavenly government. (John 3:5)? (2) ?The Bible also shows that many people who do the will of God will live here on earth, as happy subjects of that Kingdom. (Matt. 6:10; Ps. 37:29)?
An additional suggestion: Those who are of the heavenly class could reply: ?Yes, I am. But the Bible cautions all of us not to be overconfident of our position. We need to keep examining ourselves to be sure that we are really doing what God and Christ require of us. (1 Cor. 10:12)? Then perhaps add: ?What responsibility did Jesus lay upon his true disciples? (Matt. 28:19, 20; 1 Cor. 9:16)? -
Shawn
Thanks NL2. I will ask since she is going to meeting again tonight. I tried the salvation method today but it put her in a bad mood. I just backed off and told her I am trying to understand and that I had no idea what JWs believe and wanted a better understanding. She said she was sorry and that we could talk about it a different time. I prayed long and hard as she was taking a nap that the Holy Spirit show her something. I am hopinh tonight that maybe something I said to her today will make her question.
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Shawn
Okay, I asked her for some books to better understand her beliefs. She said she had a "Knowledge" book that she would get for me. She checked her car trunk and she didn't have it but she brought me a book on "Reasoning". Kinda funny that these are the books you called. She gave me Reasoning and I am going to go over the points you gave. I told her I would look it over and that if I had questions could I go to her? She said yes. I now need some help on things in that book that will make her question the WTS. I am going to read some of it but again I am not a JW so I don't know what the strong points are.
Any help here would, as always, be greatly appreciated. I need things that will help make a JW think and if possible doubt what she has bee taught. Thank you guys. -
NewLight2
"I now need some help on things in that book that will make her question the WTS." - - Shawn
You are STILL going way too fast!! Slow down!! It is way too early for you to be trying to get HER to question the WTS. It is alright for you to ask her questions about things YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. But at this point she is convinced that the WTS has ALL the answers and you don't. Use this time to learn how the JW thinks. Let her teach YOU, not you teaching her. If you try to teach her now, she will stop the study before it even starts!
The situation might, and I stress the word 'might', be different if you had some experience in de-programming a cult member. But since you cannot, at this point, think like a JW, any attempt by you to get her to question the authority of the WTS would only be rejected. She will simply shut down and break all contact with you. She will fear for her own faith and she will consider you a 'spiritual danger'.
When I tried to rescue an elder's wife from the WTS, I ALREADY knew how the JW mindset worked. I also knew the differences between JW docrtine and Bible doctrine. I studied with her for 8 months and yet was unsuccessful in getting them out.
Another important factor for you to consider is that the elders in her KH will not ALLOW a female to conduct "an official Bible study" with a male. At some point she will arrange for you to study with "a brother". What is allowed for her to do is give you books, mags, and answer some of your 'easy questions'.
Even though you want to be the person to 'rescue' her, the WTS will not allow it. You will need to find another female to do the job for you.
NewLight2 -
LittleToe
Amen
Too fast will scare the bunny wabbit off...
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Shawn
I am working on the female aspect now. I do understand that I need to slow down. Just having the info is what I am asking for. I know I cannot approach her about it right now. I am worried because she is doing FS tomorrow and next weekend going away for a JW retreat. I understand there is only so much I can do. I know that there will be a point that I need to hand this to God. I am ready for that but that time is not now. I am not pushing her. I am getting more books and reading more online about cults. I am on this board for your guys input.
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NewLight2
Shawn,
Even though you seem to think that time is short to rescue her, it really is not going to make any difference if she does go out in field service and goes to the retreat. Since she is ALREADY a baptized JW, she will not become any more 'brainwashed' than she is already. She did not become 'un-brainwashed' during her short time of 'drifting away'.
Time would be of essence if:
1. She was not already baptized
2. She was about to marry a JW brother
3. She was in medical danger and was going to die if she did not agree to a blood transfusion.
Since none of the above three are current concerns for you and your gf, it will be ok to just go with the flow right now and take you time.
This thread may be of some interest to you:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/9/84617/1.ashx
This is a discussion about the WTS and the FDS doctrine.
If there is a 'magic bullet' this is it. If the 'FDS doctrine" is not supported in the scriptures, then the whole foundation of the WTS comes falling down.
Your gf is not at that place yet and if you even tried to use the information in that thread, she will run away so fast you won't even see the streak!
Below is some of the information that I compiled during my 8-month study with the elder's wife. You could use this information with your gf by asking her to tell you why this is NOT the truth. Let her search it out and tell you 'why the WT is the only truth'. The reason this approach is ok is that the material presented to her is that of your own belief system. She will disagree with it and try to prove the WT point of view. She will not run from this type of discussion. It will get her to think, but it will not be successful in de-programming her. But it will be useful to YOU in learning how a JW thinks.
Indroduction: What Is Man?
Have You Ever Wondered? Part 1
Have You Ever Wondered? Part 2
NewLight2 -
Shawn
NL2, you are right. I never really thought about the fact that there is lesser level of brainwashing. She believes what she believes and it wont change. I am concerned though that she will begin to rely on these people that are not genuine friends and when she is DF'd, which she will be as soon as she goes to the Elders and tells them that she has done many things wrong, she will be devastated and possibly become severly depressed. You are right, time is not critical right now but surely you understand that while she cannot fall more under their control she can begin to isolate herself from "worldly" people at which point this all becomes harder. I know that God alone can save her but he needs agents to act through sometimes and what if she fails to allow His agents to come to her?