Ok so you left the idea of God - what would it take to come back? (page 2)

Qcmbr

Six. I agree we are somewhat between a rock and a hard place don't you think...

John 20: 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

..so if you believe without proof you are more blessed yet proof is what we normally need before making a decision - I wouldn't buy a house on faith...

LittleToe

A personal appearance rules out the need for further evidence, and worship is spontaneous, for all the big talk on this thread...

SixofNine

Why would you quote a scripture to me? Is there even a hint of real evidence that the bible comes from a supernatural source? If so, I haven't found it.

seattleniceguy

Hey Qcmbr,

Personal appearance?
That would depend on what the appearance actually was. A human who looks exactly like a human but claims to be God (or otherwise divinely appointed) obviously is not very compelling.

See angel? See above.

Evolution superceded by another logical answer?
Another system that is even more well-supported by the facts than evolution would be interesting, to say the least, but it would not indicate the existence of God. It would simply be yet another triumph for science.

Alien life discovered?
If anything, this would provide even more evidence that God is unnecessary in explaining life on earth, since life obviously arose (or at least developed) two times independently. I've often thought that the discovery of unequivocal proof of alien life would be the final clincher that would end fundamentalism for many people.

An all-powerful God should be able to produce compelling evidence. Directly observable evidence of conscious and intentional manipulation of physical phenomena would be a start. I don't think that a God who created humans as rational creatures would have a problem supplying evidence that satisfies the rational mind he created.

SNG

DanTheMan

Even if you were to somehow be visited by an other-worldly superhuman non-material being, how would you know that the whatever-it-is that is talking to you is "God"? How could it prove that it is an uncreated, all-powerful being that has no peer or superior?

Qcmbr

Six. I wasn't quoting it at you - merely agreeing that a little evidence would be nice and yet the very basis of christian faith (or at least the greater blessing according to this scripture) is not to actually have any.. ah what a funny world.

I've been reading lots of end of the world type sites (liek a good horror novel - goose bumps but obviously not all believable!) and it suggests that God would preach His sermon at the end of the world by natural disaters. Again maybe not enough agreeable evidence - I was wondering on the type of evidence you'd think acceptable (I don't know if religious belief went up or down after the tsunami in Indonesia..)

hippikon

Meaningful two way communication. (Not much at all realy)

AlmostAtheist

Even if you were to somehow be visited by an other-worldly superhuman non-material being, how would you know that the whatever-it-is that is talking to you is "God"? How could it prove that it is an uncreated, all-powerful being that has no peer or superior?

Anybody remember the Star Trek:TNG episode where somebody looked into the holy writings of a world, determined that they were looking for the return of their god-being, and decided to show up and claim they were it? Using the technology available to her, she manipulated their weather, appeared and disappeared, predicted the future, etc. She certainly appeared to be a god, and since she looked like the god they were expecting, they bought it.

A good, believable, reasonable answer to what this god's been doing all these years while the human creatures he caused to live were suffering so greatly would be very much appreciated. But like others have pointed out, if this being was a shade more powerful than I was, he could potentially make himself seem to be a god.

The other side of the coin is that there is skepticism and then there is skepticism. You probably have little proof than the woman you call your mother actually gave birth to you. Photos can be faked, and babies look like babies anyway, how could you know it was you? Birth certificates are easy enough to fake. Just because you can show a potential way to shoot down presented evidence does mean you should always do so.

I guess it comes down to an oft quoted point about the F&DS: "Spectacular claims require spectacular proof." My mom claiming to be my mom is believable, some glowing dude that can make books float claiming to be God is not believable. He has a greater burden of proof than Mommy. (But I've got my eye on her)

Dave

Euphemism

LittleToe wrote:
A personal appearance rules out the need for further evidence, and worship is spontaneous, for all the big talk on this thread...

Do you care to elucidate this comment, LittleToe?

According to the Bible, many of the writers saw their visions in dreams. If I have some sort of dream about God, why should I wake up and believe that what I saw was anything but a product of my own imagination? For that matter, if it happens when I'm awake and I'm convinced it was real, why shouldn't I believe that it was some sort of alien, rather than a supernatural being? Is there even a difference?

And as to worship being spontaneous... I guess that depends on what you mean by worship. If aliens made first contact on my lawn, you can bet I'd be impressed. Astounded. Overawed. Speechless. But I wouldn't get down on my knees, bow down to them, and pledge my life to doing their bidding, unless they physically coerced me to.

LittleToe

Euph:
Off the top of my head, what were the experiences that several bible writers recorded (bearing in mind that my personal opinion is that they wrote down their subjective experiences with "the Divine", in terms contemporary to the period in which they lived)?

Daniel? Fell on his face and was "stunned".
The disciples at the transfiguration? Similarly "stunned" (and a simultaneous experience by multiple "victims", at that).

"The Gospel according to Toe" would concur with these experiences.
Being contemporary to our sceptical era, it would also elaborate with the fact that "LT" has never suffered seizures, etc., etc., etc....

Ok so you left the idea of God - what would it take to come back?

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