Evidence for evolution, Installment 5: Lake Tanganyika, etc

by seattleniceguy 109 Replies latest jw friends

  • tijkmo
    tijkmo

    obviously everything i have believed up to now has been influenced by my upbringing...40 years a jw..and everything i know is what the wt has told me cos i dismissed anything else..the reason i did this is because i trusted them because i had no reason not to....until now

    so yes aa i would be interested in hearing another opinion..but even as i do i am conditioned to respond with what i always have believed..i dont think that is too difficult to understand or to counteract reasonably..(thanx for apology btw ..no offence taken)

    abaddon however is not a good teacher by thinking that to continue throwing facts at me (which i admit to having little knowledge about) and then being disparaging at my inability to bow to his 'superior' intellect is in any way going to make what he has to say appealing

    sixy..if its me you are referring to sorry im unembarrassable..guess where i learned that...oh and telling ex jws to go f*** themselves is about as personal as it gets..no..whoever you directed that to

    so pyramids at the time of the 'flood'....i did not know this

    but the main problem i have with evolution is the start...evidence of adaption i accept...but how did it start from nothing...as simply put in laymans terms please...god always existing as a counter argument is not good enough reasoning

    little toe tsk tsk im not scottish...im like you an englishmen living in a friendly rarely hostile enviroment.

    and as to anyone having hold of my b**££*+&s...impossible..you'd have to sew them back on first

  • Daunt
    Daunt

    tijkmo. I suggest reading as much as you can about everything you can. You're actually at a point that can be envied because you now have a pretty much blank ticket on many things. And you can hopefully share things with other people. AA was a little upfront with his argument. But in arguments that's what happens. However, arguments are needed, they further the understanding of humankind. If you start researching these and other subjects you will be unstoppable. It's never over. You can be 90 right now and still start a new life and live if well. Start studying about cults, religions, the arts everything you can think of. Then it will be pretty hard to break your defenses when you have a life based in reality.

  • tijkmo
    tijkmo

    daunt thanx..i may well do that...are you sure that you are only 17 btw..i know that sounds condescending but tis not meant...more envy than condescension

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    tijkmo:

    abaddon however is not a good teacher by thinking that to continue throwing facts at me (which i admit to having little knowledge about) and then being disparaging at my inability to bow to his 'superior' intellect is in any way going to make what he has to say appealing

    Perhaps he could have been kinder, but to be fair to him, you aren't exactly a good student either. You began by declaring evolution to be impossible without even mentioning the evidence that seattleniceguy had spent considerable time and effort gathering. You continued by claiming that you wouldn't believe evolution unless you saw animals around you evolving (similar, as someone pointed out, to refusing to believe in continental drift unless you actually see Australia move).

    Abaddon dealt in detail with the actual statements you made, the logical fallacies therein and how your view of reality was contradicted by the facts. You took offence at that without ever attempting to counter any of his arguments. You even implied that had he not offended your sensibilities, you might have listened to his arguments.

    What you may be forgetting is that you didn't enter the fray by admitting you knew nothing about evolution and couldn't believe how it could be true. You asserted that it was impossible and used a maxim in a horrifyingly inappropriate way in place of an argument. That is why Abaddon was harsher with you than he could have been, not because you were ignorant about the subject but because you pretended not to be.

    Now you can take offence at what Abaddon wrote, and at what I've written. Whether you do or not, I would strongly suggest reading up on what evolution actually is, and considering some of the evidence. The vast resources of http://www.talkorigins.org are a good place to start. Try River Out of Eden by Richard Dawkins if you prefer reading hard copy.

  • tijkmo
    tijkmo

    ok derek..thanx i will take a look

  • Spook
    Spook

    I wanted to add a bit about the problem with an idea of genetic "perfection" and complete robustness of a theoretical creation scenario. Single nucleotide polymorphisms, or "SNPs" ? buried within the 3 billion chemical bases of DNA - comprise the human genome. Not every SNP will necessarily cause a mutation or determine our eye or hair color ? but, on average, SNPs occur about once in every 1,000 DNA bases, adding up to 3 million potential individual differences across the human genome. The question then becomes how many DNA bases would an "ADAM" have had to posess?

    Also, as a good add on, what would have been the chromosome implication of Eve coming from Adam's "rib?"

    (As an aside...Was the rib transplant carried on without the transfer of any whole blood?)

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Tijkmo

    I'm glad your questioning things. It can be a bumpy ride, but it smoothes out a bit.

    how did it start from nothing

    I'm not that up on evolution, but i do know that how it all started is not addressed by evolutionary theory. Evolution is about change from one form to another, not how the first form came to be. It also doesn't necesarily claim that there isn't/aren't god/s.

    S

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    but the main problem i have with evolution is the start...evidence of adaption i accept...but how did it start from nothing...as simply put in laymans terms please...god always existing as a counter argument is not good enough reasoning

    Cool, this is a great place to start. This is a good example of what evolution *isn't*, since it doesn't try to explain how life originated. It's hard to nail down what exactly life is, but if we assume there is some line that gets crossed where a lump of stuff isn't alive, and then we add some property to it (reproduction is a likely one) and call it life, then that's where it started. There are theories about how that point got reached, but evolution picks up after that point.

    So there's the first point. Evolution doesn't address the question of "how did life start?" Only, "How did the different species of life come to exist?"

    Once life was already rolling, how did it become all the different species? Evolution says that life needs to continue (survive) and reproduce. So whatever qualities the creature has to enable it to do that are "good" and anything that gets in the way of that is "bad". Mutations occur (cosmic rays altering the DNA?), giving the creature's children some new trait, probably a bad one. A frog with an extra leg sticking out of his side, for instance. That creature will not survive as well as his peers, and his mutated genes will die with him. But sometimes just at random a change takes place that's a good thing. Maybe the frog's tendons attach a little higher or lower on his legs, giving him a better jumping ability to escape predators. Because he can escape when others can't, he'll survive longer. He'll have more offspring that also carry his better jumping genes. If there's any sort of pressure in his environment (lots of predators) he and his children will be the ones that survive, pretty soon taking over the population. Now they ALL have better legs, and the not-so-good legged ones have to either die off, or find a less predator-rich environment to live in. (Let's assume they moved)

    (Note here that mutations occur at random, but the "good" ones are selected as keepers by virute of the fact that they are being carried by the creature most likely to survive and reproduce. Mutation is random, selection is not.)

    That explains how a frog might become a better frog, but how could a frog ever become something else, something not a frog?

    The trick is to realize that tiny changes add up. A frog with better legs can hop clear out of the water. While he's out, he can snap up food on the sides of the pond that other frogs can't reach. Once all the frogs can do that, the ones that can see better can be even more successful. And the ones that manage to get the ability to detect sounds will do better still. A frog that can ultimately live completely out of the water might be able to survive better still. And since he's out of the water, being covered with a fuzz would prevent him from getting sunburned. If that fuzz was thicker, he'd even survive better when it gets cold. And if the coloration on his fur made him attractive to females, he'd reproduce more.

    Go back to the weaker frogs that moved away from the predators. They live in the water, they don't see well, they can't hear (for purposes of this illustration), they are furless. Compare them with the frog that has stronger hind legs, better eyes, hearing, and a fur-like coat. Is he a frog anymore? If so, how much more do we need to change before he isn't a frog?

    It's a slow process and hard to get your head around. But it is also an inevitable process, one that when you really examine it you find MUST happen. Just like a dropped rock must fall to the ground, DNA-based creatures that reproduce MUST evolve. It's natural.

    Dave

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    Tijkmo

    Not that Abbadon needs anyone to speak out for him (as I'm sure you've learned ), but if you focus less on style and more on the substance you'll see just how much there can be to learn from his postings. He's made me rethink the basis of my own position on one or two things in the past while lurking through some threads. If you go back and reread all his postings, you can see how all the facts he mentions aren't to flaunt, but they either clarify, validate, or add depth to what he's saying.

    but the main problem i have with evolution is the start...evidence of adaption i accept...but how did it start from nothing...as simply put in laymans terms please...god always existing as a counter argument is not good enough reasoning

    So I guess panspermia is out of the question? Darn, I sorta fancy the notion of being martian.

    Abiogenesis is what to look into then. There are many scenarios thought up about how life started, but really no solid evidence that favours one over another. One hypothesis thats currently in vogue has life starting off as self-replicating RNA. How it switched over to DNA though, is where its still very sketchy as far as I know.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    I wish I wasn't at work and could answer in real time.

    Abbadon - you are no smarter than me ..face it..and I'm no smarter than anyone else. In your mind maybe you think you are and the evidence I site is how you continually suggest I'm saying one thing and then attacking your view of what you think I said - let me show you one example and then I'm done with whinging:

    ME: 2/ We can never go back in time to say with any finality what actually happened so even with evidence we are still making a judgment based upon current evidence.

    YOU: You seem to be setting up, by your argument, a situation where you can believe what the hell you like but never have to back it up on account that when challanged about anything you'll just make-out that nothing is certain.

    I was making the fairly obvious statement that we are all working from evidences -not from first hand knowledge - I was making no reference for allowing myself to go on any flight of fancy I like - just that we are all constantly evaluating and making our best GUESS at what we think happened from what we can see. You are unable to prove squat to me and I likewise can prove nothing to you. I spent enough time in philosophy class in 'hole in my bucket arguements' to fall for that idea.

    My general point about things like evolution is that its not a done deal and I find those who accept it with religious fervour and preach it at every chance is as much a bum clencher for me as pulpit bashers with their favourite bible topic. I haven't made up my mind about evolution - my jury is still out (Brucie Mckonckie did not write scripture - he wrote his opinion at the time) - but I still find that my belief in the creation is unshaken - I still find enough holes in evolution to let it through.

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